Is finish checking a big deal??

[pbla4024]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

So are lacquer and Nitro always the same thing? One poster on this thread said that Furch doesn't use Nitro. However the Stonebridge website (same as Furch) says it is a hand-rubbed lacquer finish. Is that the type of finish that can check just from the cold and that I don't need to worry about?

I asked Furch while ago about what they use and they replied it is acid catalyzed finish.
I found some description here

Catalyzed lacquer falls between the application qualities of nitrocellulose lacquer and the durability of varnish. Catalyzed lacquer is a complex finish composed of urea formaldehyde or urea melamine and an alkyd that has some nitrocellulose resin added (to make it handle like normal lacquer). The addition of an acid catalyst starts a chemical reaction that forms a durable finish.
Catalyzed lacquer comes in 2 versions:
Pre-catalyzed lacquer – the components are premixed, either by the manufacturer or at the store where you buy it.
Post-catalyzed lacquer is a two-part system that you must mix, following precise ratios. Once the catalyst has been added, these lacquers have a fairly short shelf/pot life.

I was under impression that checking is specific to nitro, that' why I'm a bit puzzled.

[MC5C]

finish checking is a natural characteristic of an aged nitrocellulose lacquer finish, and is a normal part of aging of guitars. If you like vintage high quality guitars with a thin nitrocellulose lacquer finish you have to learn to love the checking. On the other hand, checking can be a sign of distress from rapid temperature changes, instability of the wood, poor quality workmanship on newer guitars or guitars with other than true nitrocellulose finishes. I would not expect any checking on a guitar with a waterbased poly finish. Pre and post catalyzed lacquer should be tough enough to not finish check with normal care, at least not for a very long time. Old fashioned nitrocellulose is not catalyzed at all, it's an evaporative finish. Here is a good discussion: http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-...e-new-standard

On my old guitars, its a sign of respect and duration, just like the wrinkles and bald head are on me. On a brand new guitar I would expect a flawless finish, just like I had at age 25...

Brian

[DenverSteve]

[QUOTE=Carbonius;5203452]
1. Is finish checking a big deal??
2. How much percentage off would you expect for it?? /QUOTE]

You didn't say what the year of the guitar is so, to me, a big deal would usually depend on the age of the guitar. If it's a 1967 Gibson, then it could be considered normal. If it's a new guitar, I consider it a flaw/blemish.

You quoted the "street price" of the guitar at $2,800 and that guitar lists new for slightly more so I assume a new guitar. On a new guitar I would expect a 20-25% discount. Your expectations may vary.

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by MC5C

On a brand new guitar I would expect a flawless finish, just like I had at age 25...

Indeed, but exposure to extreme conditions can also affect a brand new guitar. I have recently bought two high end guitars with extremely thin nitro finish, and they were shipped in the deep of winter and each spent at least a week at about -20C. Though I took all the precautions of bringing them back to room temperature slowly, they had some checking. The sellers offered to take them back, but as they are extremely rare guitars that I spent some time chasing, and they are possibly the only ones of their kind in Canada I decided to keep them. And of course they are awesome and totally beyond my skill level.

Anyway, my advice would be to just not expose the instrument to such extremes. If you buy in the deep of winter, maybe ask the seller to hold the shipping until temperatures are well above freezing. I have no idea about pre-checked guitars, if this increases or reduces the risk of further checking.

Anyway, it would be nice to see some pictures of the Stonebridge and the extent of the checking.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Bluegrass guys do that.

Yep. They live in the top 5 frets and most use open, 1st position chords. Barre chords seldom used. Power is more important to BG'ers and the string need more room to vibrate to their fullest.

A guitar that had been setup for a powerful Bluegrass player would likely be a nightmare to play for a fingerstyle guy (and vice-versa).

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by pbla4024

I asked Furch while ago about what they use and they replied it is acid catalyzed finish.
I found some description here

Catalyzed lacquer falls between the application qualities of nitrocellulose lacquer and the durability of varnish. Catalyzed lacquer is a complex finish composed of urea formaldehyde or urea melamine and an alkyd that has some nitrocellulose resin added (to make it handle like normal lacquer). The addition of an acid catalyst starts a chemical reaction that forms a durable finish.
Catalyzed lacquer comes in 2 versions:
Pre-catalyzed lacquer – the components are premixed, either by the manufacturer or at the store where you buy it.
Post-catalyzed lacquer is a two-part system that you must mix, following precise ratios. Once the catalyst has been added, these lacquers have a fairly short shelf/pot life.

I was under impression that checking is specific to nitro, that' why I'm a bit puzzled.

Thank you for those details! Very interesting. My understanding is that both Nitro and Varnish can check, but I am no expert!

[QUOTE=PastorSteve;5204104]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

1. Is finish checking a big deal??
2. How much percentage off would you expect for it?? /QUOTE]

You didn't say what the year of the guitar is so, to me, a big deal would usually depend on the age of the guitar. If it's a 1967 Gibson, then it could be considered normal. If it's a new guitar, I consider it a flaw/blemish.

You quoted the "street price" of the guitar at $2,800 and that guitar lists new for slightly more so I assume a new guitar. On a new guitar I would expect a 20-25% discount. Your expectations may vary.

I stated in my initial post that the guitar is new, maybe you thought I meant "new to me". I would assume it's a few months old at best. Thanks for the estimate Pastor Steve.

As someone else mentioned; it's great getting a discount, but how big of a hit do I take if I want to resell it later? As such, I think I need a substantial discount if I do it at all! I doubt Stonebridge/Furch wants the guitars shipped back to them where they would have to strip and refinish it. Cross sea shipping alone would be pricey! It all comes down to whether I want a new guitar that's cold checked or not.

[earri]

Not to me; if the tone is what I'm after

[SOR]

It is an instant deal breaker for me. Finish checking is a finish failure pure and simple, which is why I avoid nitro whenever possible.

[jseth]

Seems that any checking would lower the price of a new guitar considerably... what one fellow said about $1,000 seems about right, possibly more.

My understanding is that finish checking is fairly even and will cover an expanse of wherever it is on the guitar (like the Gibson shown in one of the earlier replies). I have several early 70's Gibson electrics and one of them has extensive checking. On my Angus 6 string, there's also a fair amount of checking - Mark built this one for me in 1979 and it has been "rode hard and put up wet"...

However, to my way of thinking, that HUGE crack that was in an early photo wasn't what I think of as "finish checking"; that was a CRACK in the finish. Seems like two different things to me. I don't believe I would buy a new guitar with a crack like that, as it strikes me as more of a finish flaw than checking over time...

Just my 2 cents...

[Carbonius]

Honestly, I am not used to this whole finish checking thing. I don't really want a crack on my guitar. However, getting a nice guitar at a big discount is quite nice to. All my guitars eventually get dinged no matter how hard try it seems. I'm looking at a minimum of $1000 off. That much money can go a LONG ways. I could look at getting the check repaired if it bothers me. Is that something that is commonly done?

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

I could look at getting the check repaired if it bothers me. Is that something that is commonly done?

You haven't shown any pictures of what it looks like yet. Of course re-finishing can be done, and I think there are also some ways to repair some individual cracks, depending on what type of finish was used. Though of course with a complete re-finish job you never know what the overall effect will be. If you get it at less than 2/3 of price that's probably pretty sweet. Some of my guitars have cracks and I don't even notice them as I spend way more time playing than obsessing over appearance.

[jp2558]

My man cave is in my northwest Ohio basement. Temperature is always between 64 and 68 year round. We have a whole house humidifier for the winter and a standalone dehumidifier in the basement for the summer. My guitars, when not being played are stored in their cases, with Oasis humidifiers that are checked and refilled weekly.

Would a temperature change from say 68 and humidity of about 45-55 in the case, to a mid 80's temp with 70-80 percent humidity (basically bring the guitar from the basement to the patio) cause checking? That doesn't seem 'extreme' to me, but I honestly don't know if it is or is not. All I know is that my M-36 has a few rather long checks, but I don't recall exposing it to any extreme temperature changes, such as taking out of the basement and into a cold car and to a gig where I didnt let it acclimate. In fact that guitar has only taken one road trip since I bought it... so I'm curious what would have caused the checking, even though I've done as much as possible to prevent it.

I know that this is the nature of the beast, so I'm just trying to better understand the phenomena of checking. So what is 'extreme' in terms of temperature change?

[Looburst]

When it comes to checking, from what I understand, poly and nitro finishes are two very different animals. Just depends on how extreme the changes are. In your case I don't think it would make that much difference. With all the safeguards you have in place,, I can't imagine anything major occurring. I tend to think in terms of long periods of time of exposure, either one way or another.

[Carbonius]

post removed

[harmonics101]

I was anti check, until I got checked. It's happening to my Gibsons more, they're all over 10 years old. Maybe I shouldn't have baby'd them when breaking in. Finish checks don't bother me anymore and I would buy without hesitation if it sound good,

H