WW II History: Our Kids/Grandkids Being Cheated?

[zabdart]

"American higher education fails because it is less concerned with training thinking, critical minds than it is with producing patterned consumers." -- Paul Goodman, 1966
Things have only gotten worse in the half century since Goodman wrote that, and, boy! has it ever come back to BITE us.

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by Pitar

My association with, and basic knowledge of that short period in history was in large part through the eyes of a military brat. My Pop was a pilot in that period and remained a pilot till he retired from flying altogether. I was born in Landstuhl, West Germany, while he was assigned to post war occupational forces with the 302nd Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron flying the RF-84F Thunderflash at Sembach AB. Here's a model of it I built for him to take to reunions of that squadron, which is no longer represented by a living legacy. He was with a few flying outfits from 1943-1963 so I built examples of the planes they flew as table center-pieces at their reunions.

https://app.box.com/representation/f...2048_jpg/1.jpg

My own interest in military aviation throughout its history from the observation planes in WWI, and on, rounded out my knowledge and appreciation for the technical and operational sides of it.

On the subject of remembrance, it's important to remember that war as it represented every kind of calamity man could possibly have gotten himself into, to learn from, but instead it's being pushed into the ether. I want to think that forgetting it's effects on the world is partly due to a body politic at work to keep all the global egos from retro-blame and the tarnish subsequent generations seem comfortable ascribing to them, and to a larger measure from the dying out of the entire generation that lived it.

I was left all the physical trappings of a pilot-warrior from his cadet graduation ring depicting a P-38 Lightning and all the AAF symbology, through all his flight logs and associated military orders, leather skull cap and O2 mask and goggles, a flight suit, several foot lockers and a wealth of pictures he took as slides. He saved every scrap of paper the military issued to him and even has awards from Pease AFB for completely wiping out New York City on two separate practice nuclear bombing runs while flying B-47s with the 100th Bomb Wing.

What do I do with this legacy when it's my time to check out? Well, I guess I'll arrange to have it sent to a museum that will catalog it for posterity. Perhaps there will be succeeding generations to know of the man I barely knew.

Really enjoyed your post Pitar and I think your idea of donating your memorabilia to a museum is an excellent one. One thing, could you repost the link on the RF 84F? I couldn't get it to work and I would like to see it. Thanks.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by zabdart

"American higher education fails because it is less concerned with training thinking, critical minds than it is with producing patterned consumers." -- Paul Goodman, 1966
Things have only gotten worse in the half century since Goodman wrote that, and, boy! has it ever come back to BITE us.

What's a "patterned" consumer? How have schools trained kids to be one?

[flaggerphil]

Originally Posted by Song Writer

Yeah, just minus most of the fighting and most of the dying.

That is such a false statement it's almost impossible to to reply to.

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by flaggerphil

That is such a false statement it's almost impossible to to reply to.

Agreed Phil, even the tone of it is offensive to me.

[zabdart]

Originally Posted by ewalling

What's a "patterned" consumer? How have schools trained kids to be one?

Preference for one brand over another. Every time you go to the store and pick one brand of merchandise over another you are exhibiting a consumer "pattern." That's how marketing, packaging and advertising work.

[Fatstrat]

I can't truthfully say that I know to what extent our children are being taught about WW-2 history in schools since both of my kids have been out of school for 10 years or more. And even when they were in school I admit that I didn't pay much attention.
I can say that even when I was in school prior to and ending in the late 1970's, I don't recall there being a very heavy focus on WW-2. Or any particular war for that matter. They pretty much covered the major issues leading to the war. Mentioned a few major battle & events. And moved on.
But I was fortunate enough to have a adults around that fostered an interest in history. Particularly my father and particularly American history. My father was a Korean War combat vet who obviously was old enough to be very aware of WW-2 history. We also had a family friend next door neighbor who fought In WW-2 in Patton's 3rd Army. Many evenings I recall intently listening to these men swapping war stories. With a lot "real to reel" mentions of inaccuracy's in WW-2/combat movies.
The neighbor had 2 war trophy German pistols which we were allowed to examine and fire. And my Dad owned an M-1 rifle and a WW-2 German Mauser rifle that we also fired.
But My dad wasn't just interested in what at that time was fairly modern history. He loved all American history. And our family vacations always featured stops at historical places. Civil War, Old west etc. And he bought us books on American history. We had both of the Time-Life book series on The Old West and The Civil War. Plus many other books on both subjects. Which instilled in both my brother (who just last week took his family on vacation to visit the Alamo) and I, a love of American history. And I always considered one of the greatest benefits of my long haul trucking career to be the much increased opportunity to see & visit historical sites all over the country.
And I will say that we now have books, movies and documentaries that are based on actual vet recollections that are much better than ever in respect to accurately telling how it really was.
It is my understanding that there have been attempts to rewrite much of our history in school books. Some of which I think may be justified. Some of which I highly object to. IMO accuracy should be the key point regardless of how flattering or damaging it may be. And I believe that one MUST NOT view history through the prism of modern political correctness insights. The times were different, society was different, warfare was different. Everything was different. Mistakes were made. And many brilliant decisions were also made. It was good and bad.
But back to the OP's point. IMO the love & respect for history begins AT HOME. The tools and info are available. And if you want your children to know what happened, YOU hold the key.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

...It is my understanding that there have been attempts to rewrite much of our history in school books. Some of which I think may be justified. Some of which I highly object to. IMO accuracy should be the key point regardless of how flattering or damaging it may be. And I believe that one MUST NOT view history through the prism of modern political correctness insights. The times were different, society was different, warfare was different. Everything was different. Mistakes were made. And many brilliant decisions were also made. It was good and bad.

But back to the OP's point. IMO the love & respect for history begins AT HOME. The tools and info are available. And if you want your children to know what happened, YOU hold the key.

I'm with you on all points - that's exactly the same way I taught my kids for 30+ years, and almost verbatim the same things I told their parents on Open School Night...

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I think that the older folks among us are always worried about what the younger generation are learning and it seems it's never enough. And it never is, even if the education is a superior one.

Education is a lifelong pursuit. The best thing that education can do for a young student is to imprint the hunger for more information. There is always more to learn.

I know that as an engineer that lifelong learning was critically important to me. Now that I have finished my career after 46 years I see that along with every other engineer who survived for that length of time that we had to keep reinventing how we did our jobs. The fundamental equations are still the same, but the tools are so very different and so much more powerful. For much of my career I worked on a drafting table using a slide rule or calculator. It's only been since the early 1990s that we shifted over to computer aided drafting, to powerful spreadsheets, and today to super powerful simulation programs. Any engineer who was not willing to continue to learn the new technologies was left in the dust.

The same is true of all learning. It's up to us to learn and to find ways to satisfy our curiosity. Every great man or woman in history had to do the same thing.

- Glenn

Excellent post Glenn! I'm a 30-year engineer and we have kids in high school and college now so I see the current state of education. One thing I find very worrisome is that they are not instilling a hunger to learn - they are simply "filling them up" with stuff. Kids have two problems now - 1) they aren't really learning HOW to learn because the sheer volume is so high and 2) they are becoming book savvy and socially handicapped.

Someone decided we need to force feed kids more and more stuff, thinking that would make them "smarter". I think it is a very bad thing for mankind when 5 and 6 year old kids have to do homework from dinner until bedtime, then get up and do it all over again.

They are drowning in data but starving for information.

I also think the important skill (of those that excel)O will be discernment: learning how to think critically and find GOOD information amongst all the bad information. That's a new approach. When we were studying, the info in published journals and libraries was all vetted and dependable. Now, everything is published online - good and bad information. Finding information is no longer the critical skill - discerning it is.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Basalt Beach

Wadcutter,

The letter below is in a frame on the wall, in a very prominent position in our home. It was sent to my Dad at the end of WWII after he returned to civilian life in December 1945. He saved it for years in a special wooden box. When he passed, my mother gave me the box and I had the letter framed.

I know it is simply a form letter sent to thousands who served, however it was important to my Dad. He never spoke a word of his service in WWII.

I believe the words describing the U.S. Navy's achievement in the letter say it best where it states "You have served in the greatest navy in the world" and then goes on describe the major achievements of the Navy. It will be passed on to the next generation and each succeeding generation in our family and hopefully inspire them to explore and learn the history of their ancestor.

My dad almost never talked about his time in the Navy. Later in life he hung a really poor quality picture on the wall. It was a sepia-colored 8x10 and I couldn't tell if it was a drawing or blurry photo or copy of a picture.

He explained it once - he didn't take the picture but he was standing there when the scene occurred. They were on an island and he was ashore at the top of a ridge looking down on the beach where his LST and some other boat were docked. The thin column of smoke (blurry in the pic) was the fire on the next boat from a Japanese bomb dropped on it. He remembers when that happened and his own eyes looked at that smoke.

After never talking about it, that was the first real glimpse of his reality there.

[zabdart]

You know, there's a tendency to dismiss all history that precedes one's birth as being boring and irrelevant, and this is not necessarily the fault of schools (although it may be the fault of individual teachers). I have great nieces and nephews who can't believe the 60s were about anything more than nostalgia and a fashion statement. As Marcus Aurelius pointed out a long time ago: "Whatever is received is received in the manner of the receiver." Our challenge is to elevate the level of perception of the younger generation (an ongoing problem since the dawn of civilization).

[Silurian]

Its interesting to note how the two closest allies in WW2 have different "histories" of the same conflict. From what I can see the American experience appears to emphasise the military campaigns and battles. In the UK There is more of an emphasis on the effect of the war on the civilian population: bombing, rationing, evacuation of children, etc.
Of course the different perspectives are entirely understandable due to the level of mobilisation of the general population and the fact that the UK was in range of the Luftwaffe.

Conversely however the history of WW1 is much more focused on the military aspect as the effect on the civilian population was more limited.

[jpd]

"talking to high school kids about WW II history just to see what they know and I can tell you that they know darn little if anything. I haven't met one yet who could even tell me who were the Allied Powers and the Axis Powers"




So much is happening on the tech scene that the printed page is becoming useless. The lack of education on the junior and senior high level is from the local school boards...not the book publishers. On the other hand, general knowledge of past world events of the scope of WWII, and other events, should be part of a youngsters home education?

[patrickgm60]

Interesting topic. Do keep in mind that most high school students now receive much of their course material on line, either as primary or supplemental text to the "text book."

A good argument could be made that WWI (or World War, the first chapter) was far more significant in world and US history, than Chapter 2. WW2 was a direct result of the outcome and post-war handling of WWI. Same, as to the Cold War. WW1 also introduced more new technologies and strategies to war. (Study of war should be more than celebrating how many "bad guys" were killed, yes?) Use of aircraft (including drones), tanks, machine guns, poison gas, air traffic control, stainless steel, zippers and advanced intelligence techniques was largely introduced in WW1.

I suspect WW2 has more allure to Americans, due to it being more recent, the evil individual enemies, and documented examples of Allied heroism - much of which is missing, in WW1.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

IMO the love & respect for history begins AT HOME. The tools and info are available. And if you want your children to know what happened, YOU hold the key.

I think an interest in, maybe even rapture about, history begins with the love for a good story! That's how it was in my and my brother's case, at least. We'd hear a story at school about Willie the Conk or King Arthur (fantasy based on history) or whatever, and an interest was sparked about a different world, a different life, and a different set of rules. I don't think love of history is initially about honoring dead heroes; I think it's about bloody good stories (often literally!). From those stories, I think, a curiosity about the details may develop, or not as the case may be. As I mentioned before, I think that may be the challenge for adults wishing to direct young people's attention to WWII; it's a bit boring as history tales go. At 15, I opted for modern history for what used to be called 'O' levels (the first important exams we used to take back in the UK), and the syllabus extended into WWII. As I remember, the build-up to the war was fascinating - the decadence and desperation of the Weimar regime and development of the Nazis - but the actual war itself was not interesting from a story point of view, certainly not in the way that WWI and some of the 19th century imperial wars had been.

That's how I see it. I don't think young people come at history from a social responsibility viewpoint, no matter how hard their elders may demand that they do. They come at it like 'Game of Thrones'. A deeper understanding of the importance and an appreciation of the less glittering aspects may come later, but kids, I think, don't have the be-grateful-to-your-forbears gene in them. There are too many other things going on ...