WW II History: Our Kids/Grandkids Being Cheated?

[Basalt Beach]

Wadcutter,

The letter below is in a frame on the wall, in a very prominent position in our home. It was sent to my Dad at the end of WWII after he returned to civilian life in December 1945. He saved it for years in a special wooden box. When he passed, my mother gave me the box and I had the letter framed.

I know it is simply a form letter sent to thousands who served, however it was important to my Dad. He never spoke a word of his service in WWII.

I believe the words describing the U.S. Navy's achievement in the letter say it best where it states "You have served in the greatest navy in the world" and then goes on describe the major achievements of the Navy. It will be passed on to the next generation and each succeeding generation in our family and hopefully inspire them to explore and learn the history of their ancestor.

[ewalling]

Just out of interest, and as slight digression, how much world history do US kids get at school? I imagine it's quite heavily weighted in favor of what happened in the US, but do they/you also get early civilizations; the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Ottomans; the Medieval and Renaissance periods - stuff that preceded the existence of the modern US?

[blue]

Haven't you heard. History (or art, lit, poetry, etc) as recorded by white men is not very popular in college these days... Not trying to stir the pot. Just stating the current state of college education at this moment. I'm sure the pendulum will swing back. It always does...

[Cypress Knee]

I think there is just a general numbing to the awareness of what war is all about. There were horrendous casualties at Antietam, US deaths in WW 1 were over 400,000, the casualties at Omaha Beach were in the thousands for one day. Even a death count of 250 or thereabouts in the Ia Drang Valley in a couple of days.

18 dead in a botched raid in Mogadishua?

I am not making light of the subject, every death should be felt, but less than twenty in a modern day operation as opposed to a few hundred in the the Ia Drang Valley? Compare that to a few thousand in Normandy. Or a whole lot more in Sharpsburg on a single day.

Today's warfare is not close, but it is still horrific. Imagine if every infantryman in the Middle East today was broadcasting live to Youtube from a GoPro - do you think many Americans would be offended - probably so.

CK

The History Channel used to be a wonderful resource for WWII as well as several other conflicts and I learned more from that than I ever did in school. Sadly, that has given way to the likes of Pawn Stars, American Pickers, et al. Oh, the good stuff can still be found here and there, but it's not as accessible as it was.

A few years back this forum had a thread about Operation Barbarosa, a very interesting subject that goes to someone's earlier point about the contributions of the Soviets. The cry went up on the forum that this subject was somehow glorifying Hitler. What!?

We must understand the world events of the 20th century if we wish to avoid repeating some of them, not the least of which is how Hitler rose to power, followed closely in importance by the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in 1914, which essentially shaped the course of events in the rest of the century.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Just out of interest, and as slight digression, how much world history do US kids get at school? I imagine it's quite heavily weighted in favor of what happened in the US, but do they/you also get early civilizations; the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Ottomans; the Medieval and Renaissance periods - stuff that preceded the existence of the modern US?

I don't really know how they do it now, but when I was in primary and secondary school they were taught as separate subjects. American History and World History. It was only when I got to college that classes offering more depth were available. I still have my textbooks for History of Civilization which went for many levels over several semesters. I also had a class on History of the American Frontier that was particularly good. I do recall that very few classes got too involved with European history and virtually none covered Asia to any real extent.

The exception was probably English history where the narrative started around 1066 and was pretty extensive.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by fumei

I supported Canada sending troops into Afghanistan, but I object strenuously when people say it was for "our freedom". Were the crazies there a possible danger to us? Yes, I suppose, but in a very tiny way. If you personally were affected by terrorist attacks then sure, it is a big way; however, IMO there have been NO terrorist attacks, anywhere, that have directly endangered our freedoms. Some safety, yes; freedoms, no. But life has no guarantees of safety, ever. And we will never be guaranteed safe. That is not the same as freedoms.

I cannot speak to Canada but I can speak to the U.S. While the actions of Middle-Eastern Muslim extremist terrorists don't directly impinge on my freedoms, the result of their actions and the actions they inspire and coordinate greatly effect my freedoms. How?

When there is a threat to security, many citizens demand strictures that bind our freedoms. They think they can trade freedom for security.

As a result, in many places it is no longer possible to simply park your car and walk into a building. Barricades now block the entrances to many buildings and nearby parking has been closed.

Pocketknives are tools that are traditional in my region of the U.S. but they are banned in most theater venues and aboard many forms of transportation.

Every day we hear of new laws being proposed that restrict the core values our nation was founded upon. Freedom of speech is threatened by surveillance. Freedom of assembly is threatened by the threat of opportunistic mass murders inspired or coordinated by Middle-Eastern Muslim extremist terrorists. Our culture is changed.

The strategy of threatening the originators of this violence where they live in order to make them too busy trying to stay alive to export their violence to our country makes a lot of sense. If you want to see what happens when their existence isn't threatened, look to Paris, Nice, Germany, London, L.A., Orlando, and more.

So no, I don't see terrorists hitting Canada quite yet. But as an open Western society, you could easily be next. And your laws are probably changing even as you speak to trade freedom for security.

Bob

[Greg Rappleye]

There is no doubt that the people of the Soviet Union suffered horribly during the World War II era. Much of that suffering, though, can be traced directly to the mendacity of Stalin, who purged thousands of his best military officers in the late 30's and early 40's, and then effectively aligned himself with Hitler in the "German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact," (Molotov-Ribbentrop). This led to the division of Poland and much of Eastern Europe between the Soviets and the Germans (giving the Nazis a "jump start" on their ultimate invasion of the SU), and to the ill-fated (from the Soviet perspective) 1939-1940 Winter War between the SU and Finland.

Greg Rappleye

[Bob Womack]

History is how we learn what works and what doesn't. The history of war is the history of how countries prepared for and reacted to crisis. The cliche' says that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. I grew up in the sixties and was influenced very much by the peace movement. After reading the histories of many crises through the centuries I've adopted a Latin saying that has been passed down from the fifth century Roman writer, Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus:

"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
"If you want peace, prepare for war."

The historically-supported point here is that pacifism doesn't win, preserve, or protect peace. Only strength does that. In an interesting correlation, those who know the most about war (soldiers, students of war) desire it the least.

Bob

[imwjl]

My kids are being taught history and about everything better than my growing up a baby boomer.

I hear all this crap about poor education and state of kids often and have to wonder if the noisemakers are stepping into schools or at the table with kids doing their homework.

To be fair, my kids are now in a slightly smaller public school district that neighbors the main city but kids in the bigger district get the same. My wife teaches troubled kids in a large school with 2-3 police officers on duty all the time and there's good curriculum there too. What's missed is the kids who are in a tough scenario have to spend a lot of effort on just survival.

Cheated? Missed something? It would have been nice of some of my elders shared more when they were still alive. I think of a memo my mom's cousin left. He was a bomber pilot in WWII and then worked for OSS. A memo he typed at the start of brain cancer in the 1990s is fascinating. It helped explain why his career as a psychiatrist was at a state institution known as an insane asylum when I was a kid.

What's awesome these days is I see my kids exposed to more, two sides of a story, and with easy access to so much material. This is threatening to some - especially those we know at or toward political extremes, and the less educated.

[Herb Hunter]

The question is how well are today’s students being taught U.S. history as compared to what baby boomers were taught?

I don’t recall being taught much about World War I or II. I learned about those wars, especially the second world war, while in school and afterwards on my own out of a specific interest.

[Bikewer]

I listened to a little segment on NPR's The World about a Vietnamese war veteran who tried to maintain a little museum about the war years.
He said that the current crop of young folks over there were utterly uninterested.. No one cared... That was the past.

I see much the same thing with our own experiences. Since my dad served in the navy, I was fascinated at an early age, especially with the air war. Read all the great biographies and autobiographies of the great aces, on both sides.

Even in the mid-60s, I was very dissappointed in the short shrift given to the great war in high-school history class. Simply glossed over for the most part.
I had no idea of the Soviet experience of "The Great Patriotic War" until much later in life.

It would appear that this history will be relegated to the enthusiasts. Which is odd, since the experience of WWII has shaped much of the world as we know it today.

[HHP]

The irony is that almost the entire basis of the last half of the 20th century continuing to today was WWII. Computers, cellphones, etc are offshoots of WWII technology. The fact that the war ended with the use of nuclear weapons probably prevented a more devastating nuclear exchange during the 50's, 60's, 70's and on. Not to mention the events leading to the founding of Israel and how that has impacted the Middle East to this day.

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by Basalt Beach

Wadcutter,

The letter below is in a frame on the wall, in a very prominent position in our home. It was sent to my Dad at the end of WWII after he returned to civilian life in December 1945. He saved it for years in a special wooden box. When he passed, my mother gave me the box and I had the letter framed.

I know it is simply a form letter sent to thousands who served, however it was important to my Dad. He never spoke a word of his service in WWII.

I believe the words describing the U.S. Navy's achievement in the letter say it best where it states "You have served in the greatest navy in the world" and then goes on describe the major achievements of the Navy. It will be passed on to the next generation and each succeeding generation in our family and hopefully inspire them to explore and learn the history of their ancestor.

BB, What a great tribute and authentic piece of history to keep and pass on in the family. Thanks for sharing that.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

History is how we learn what works and what doesn't. The history of war is the history of how countries prepared for and reacted to crisis. The cliche' says that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

It may be labeled a cliché for good reason - this is a very pragmatic view of how humans in various parts of the world shape their respective destinies. Personally, I think the notion that history is all about studying the past and making sure certain things don't/do happen again would suggest that we should by now have removed most of the glaring repetitions of seeming folly that continue to assail us with such alarming consistency. This, however, is not the case. My suspicion is that is that history develops more organically, from impulses that run deep within the core of peoples. History is not a Scandinavian flatpack piece of furniture that can be correctly assembled if only we follow the instructions; it seems far more unpredictable than that.