XY vs Mid-Side test - ***UPDATED*** - Page 2

howthewestwas1 · #16 09-19-2016, 08:42 AM

I added some small overdubs to each song, including my tele+princeton reverb to the "mint" track and very subtle lead line toward the end of "furrowed brow". Just ran it straight down the middle - seems to sit well!

ChuckS · #17 09-19-2016, 08:58 PM

I much prefer the XY over the M-S setup. To me, the bass is getting lost in the M-S (probably not getting a full representation of the guitar's audio output from the Mid mic); I'm assuming the sides are picking up mostly reflections instead of any direct sounds from the guitar.

I don't feel that the guitar is a wide enough audio source to get the full benefit of M-S (benefit such as being able to adjust the width of the stereo field post recording): If the M-S setup is backed off from the guitar the Mid mic gets a better blend of the guitar's output but the Side mic gets nothing directly from the guitar; if the setup is brought in close enough for the Side mic to get some of the guitar's direct sound then the Mid mic is so close that it only gets sound from a small section of the guitar.

Are you considering trying a spaced pair arrangement? I think it's easier to get a nice XY recording, but with some experimentation on mic placement spaced pair can be really nice.

howthewestwas1 · #18 09-20-2016, 01:15 PM

Chuck, thanks for the comments. I agree with you assessment regarding potential pitfalls of Mid-side in this application. In retrospect, using a LDC rather than a SDC for the mid mic seems to exacerbate this pitfalls. I'm not giving up on mid-side yet but at this time, I too greatly prefer the XY technique.

I have not yet dabbled with spaced pair as I am new to stereo recording and it is my understanding that spaced pairs are most susceptible to phase issues. However as I am getting more comfortable with mic'ing, positioning, etc...I will eventually give it a shot!

Thanks again!

ChuckS · #19 09-20-2016, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howthewestwas1

Chuck, thanks for the comments. I agree with you assessment regarding potential pitfalls of Mid-side in this application. In retrospect, using a LDC rather than a SDC for the mid mic seems to exacerbate this pitfalls. I'm not giving up on mid-side yet but at this time, I too greatly prefer the XY technique.

I have not yet dabbled with spaced pair as I am new to stereo recording and it is my understanding that spaced pairs are most susceptible to phase issues. However as I am getting more comfortable with mic'ing, positioning, etc...I will eventually give it a shot!

Thanks again!

Regarding spaced pair recording, you do have to be aware of phase issues (comb filtering). However, assuming you aren't concerned about collapsing down to mono, the phase concerns can be dealt with if you pan one mic hard left and the other mic hard right. The distance between the mics can be set/adjusted to provide the width of the stereo field you desire (don't set the pan toward center to adjust the width of the stereo field).

howthewestwas1 · #20 09-25-2016, 05:26 PM

Not having much luck with spaced pair yet but did experiment with setting of the neumanns in XY as such.

I find that having the top mic (rather than the bottom) angled toward the bridge reduces some of the boominess.

I re-recorded "The Furrowed Brow" with this setup and have replaced the original file with the new version.

Also did this new tune, "The Gray House"

Doug Young · #21 09-25-2016, 06:15 PM

Spaced pairs should be the easiest technique - there are fewer constraints. Just put the mics where they sound good somewhere around the body/neck joint and somewhere around the bridge, and record. Fix the stereo image by adjusting levels in the mix.

A variation I've found to be almost foolproof is to set the mics up at about the level of the sounhole, or slightly higher, at the same level, about 15-20 inches apart. Aim them straight forward, or turned in slightly. Sit down with the mics around 12 inches away (or try anywhere from around 8 to 24 inches away), and move your chair left or right to balance the levels. That's it. Should sound great.

Here's a birds-eye view of one such setup, I think this was 20 inches apart, maybe 10-12 inches from the guitar:

howthewestwas1 · #22 09-27-2016, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Spaced pairs should be the easiest technique - there are fewer constraints. Just put the mics where they sound good somewhere around the body/neck joint and somewhere around the bridge, and record. Fix the stereo image by adjusting levels in the mix.

A variation I've found to be almost foolproof is to set the mics up at about the level of the sounhole, or slightly higher, at the same level, about 15-20 inches apart. Aim them straight forward, or turned in slightly. Sit down with the mics around 12 inches away (or try anywhere from around 8 to 24 inches away), and move your chair left or right to balance the levels. That's it. Should sound great.

Here's a birds-eye view of one such setup, I think this was 20 inches apart, maybe 10-12 inches from the guitar:

Doug, thanks so much for this! So I take it that the 3:1 rule is more of a guideline? That's the part that I was struggling with. Thanks again.

Doug Young · #23 09-27-2016, 03:12 PM

The 3-1 rule is basically all but impossible to achieve with solo guitar, unless you mic very close. It's a good rule to understand, but it's good to keep in mind that all these micing techniques were developed for things very different than recording solo acoustic guitar, so you have the take the ideas with a grain of salt.

howthewestwas1 · #24 09-27-2016, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The 3-1 rule is basically all but impossible to achieve with solo guitar, unless you mic very close. It's a good rule to understand, but it's good to keep in mind that all these micing techniques were developed for things very different than recording solo acoustic guitar, so you have the take the ideas with a grain of salt.

That is very reassuring because I was really struggling with that! Thanks again!

rick-slo · #25 09-27-2016, 06:39 PM

3:1 rule does not apply at all for recording a solo guitar

Timothy Lawler · #26 09-29-2016, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

3:1 rule does not apply at all for recording a solo guitar

I agree.

What I was taught a number of years ago was that the 3:1 rule originated as a mic placement guide when setting up mikes on 2 or more different instruments, specifically when the mikes are going to be summed. The idea is to keep each mic 3x closer to its assigned instrument than to another nearby instrument that has its own mic. That reduces bleed from the competing instrument in the mikes' sound capture and so reduces comb filtering when the mikes are summed.

Now, you may find that you get a great sound with mikes that far apart in A B placement on a guitar. But that isn't related to the 3:1 rule.

rick-slo · #27 09-29-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

I agree.

What I was taught a number of years ago was that the 3:1 rule originated as a mic placement guide when setting up mikes on 2 or more different instruments, specifically when the mikes are going to be summed. The idea is to keep each mic 3x closer to its assigned instrument than to another nearby instrument that has its own mic. That reduces bleed from the competing instrument in the mikes' sound capture and so reduces comb filtering when the mikes are summed.

Yes, and as long as you stay stereo. Also, by the way, even for mic'ing two or more instruments the 3:1 rule has nothing to do with mono compatibility,
and in fact the limitations of setting up mikes according to 3:1 rule may work against tweaking mike positioning to achieve better mono compatibility.

ukejon · #28 09-29-2016, 11:49 AM

Just curious, Doug. Do the two mics running into the Zoom override the built-in X-Y mics on the unit? Also, is there any discernible machine noise from the Zoom that shows up on your recordings or is it pretty much silent.

Doug Young · #29 09-29-2016, 04:40 PM

The zoom has no disk drive or fan, so it's totally quiet. The zoom isnt my normal recording chain, but I use it for videos, and it would certainly be fine for recording a. Cd - I know people doing that. The h6 allows the built in Mics plus up to 4 others, each to a different track. The built in mica can also be replaced with other options.

Sage97 · #30 10-26-2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Spaced pairs should be the easiest technique - there are fewer constraints. Just put the mics where they sound good somewhere around the body/neck joint and somewhere around the bridge, and record. Fix the stereo image by adjusting levels in the mix.

A variation I've found to be almost foolproof is to set the mics up at about the level of the sounhole, or slightly higher, at the same level, about 15-20 inches apart. Aim them straight forward, or turned in slightly. Sit down with the mics around 12 inches away (or try anywhere from around 8 to 24 inches away), and move your chair left or right to balance the levels. That's it. Should sound great.

Here's a birds-eye view of one such setup, I think this was 20 inches apart, maybe 10-12 inches from the guitar:

That's exactly how I record and had no clue that it even had a name until now. I hard pan left and right, sit in front with the guitar and move around until it sounds best and hit record. Maybe I couldn't hear any phase issues because I always hard pan. Then again, none of my recordings are masterpieces. I just enjoy making noise with my guitars.

.