Song writers: When is your song done? Is it ever?

[Charlie Bernstein]

This came up in the Telecaster forum, and I'm wondering what AGF folks have to say.

A recent article desribed the Grateful Dead's original tunes as always being works in progress, changing, adapting, and evolving with every show.

Mine are never done. I often start learning and performing them when I think they're good, and sometimes I record them, too. But that doesn't stop me from changing them. If I think of a better word or a great new verse, it goes in. If I think of a devilish chord change, I keep it.

Whatever they're like at the moment is a snapshot — like an accountant's balance sheet showing finances at a particular moment.*

But in the Tele forum, something I didn't expect came up: Many — maybe most — of the forum members there said their songs were done when they were recorded. A lot of them also said that they write while recording, rather than writing first and then recording. I hadn't realized how DAW-dependent songwriting had become. Am I the only pen/paper/guitar songwriter left?

So tell me: Are your songs ever done? If they are, when are they done — when you've written them out, when you've scored them, when you've recorded them, when you're tired of them?

Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

---------------

*Boilerplate disclaimer: If I have a musical strength, it isn't my playing or singing. It's my writing. It's been a hobby since my '60s high school daze. Never been a pro, but I've had good fun being an amateur.

[mr. beaumont]

Anything I write is meant to be improvised on, so "never" would definitely be my answer.

I find it kind of liberating. Though I guess any recording becomes a snapshot in time of "doneness."

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

…Are your songs ever done? If they are, when are they done — when you've written them out, when you've scored them, when you've recorded them, when you're tired of them?

Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

Hi Charlie…
Sure they are finished (and I can produce a chart)…

Do I modify them on the fly after I've written down the chart. Sure…they are finished…right?

I give myself (and others) permission to alter things on the fly. That's what creativity does!

[Brent Hahn]

There's an upcoming memorial concert for a brilliant local songwriter. I'm working up one of his songs. I have eight or nine different live recordings for reference. No two of them are the same.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Anything I write is meant to be improvised on, so "never" would definitely be my answer.

I find it kind of liberating. Though I guess any recording becomes a snapshot in time of "doneness."

'Zackly!

(And: Whew! I'm not the only one!)

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2]Hi Charlie…
Sure they are finished (and I can produce a chart)…

Do I modify them on the fly after I've written down the chart. Sure…they are finished…right?

I give myself (and others) permission to alter things on the fly. That's what creativity does!

Yup. Letting others in on a song means letting go. Which is part of the fun, right?

[LiveMusic]

The arrangement and melody are almost totally done pretty quickly. Like, within hours. The lyric is most often about 80% done within hours. But then come the edits and tweaks. I'd say they're 98% done within about 30 hours of rewrites. I figured that up one time. Between 20 and 40 hours of rewrites/edits per song. (I have written hundreds of songs.) Then, it's pretty much done. I'd say 98% done. Then, over months or years before it's recorded, I might make a tweak of a word or phrase or melody line. Sometimes a lyrical change is more, like a line. Rarely do I need to do a major rewrite of a verse, chorus, bridge or entire lyric but it happens when I think there is a flaw and I need to totally revisit the theme/idea. That's been rare but has occurred.

Songwriting is often easy for me. Finishing, writing the best song I possibly can, which is what I attempt for each one, is difficult. A *lot* of work.

I am always intrigued/pissed off when I read about such-and-such major artist who says "Yeah, I wrote that in ten minutes." If these stories are true, they don't write like I do. I agonize over lyrics. And they *always* improve. We could surmise that I am just slower in wit than these savants. Which, I admit, it entirely possible. But I do always identify when famous songwriters admit to agonizing over songs to get them perfected.

I do think that there are some gifted writers who are very quick. Such as Roger Miller. I have read that about him, that he was seen as like from another planet when he hit Nashville.

BTW, I do sometimes write a song quickly, like within one hour. But almost all of them are improved, even in a minor way.

[blews]

I'd say its never done.....it can be 99%, but it seems everytime I play or perform it I find a phrase / word, or tonal pitch or riff that I like better....it never ends, which is a good thing.....

[Bob Womack]

One of the most obsessive, perfectionistic pople I ever knew, my composition major professor (RIP), advised his students, "A composition is never finished. The composer simply abandons it." There are simply no better intros or doorway drugs to the trap of analysis paralysis than songwriting and mixing music. Forget the muse, forget the voices in your head. At some point you must simply move on. Be your own boss.

By the way, there is no better antidote to these two problems than a deadline.

“To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time.” - Leonard Bernstein

Bob

PS. If you must keep things fluid, write in a portion for improv and freely perform the improv.

[Nymuso]

No. I’ve got one I started in 1972; still a work in progress. Any day now . . .

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by LiveMusic

The arrangement and melody are almost totally done pretty quickly. Like, within hours. The lyric is most often about 80% done within hours. But then come the edits and tweaks. I'd say they're 98% done within about 30 hours of rewrites. I figured that up one time. Between 20 and 40 hours of rewrites/edits per song. (I have written hundreds of songs.) Then, it's pretty much done. I'd say 98% done. Then, over months or years before it's recorded, I might make a tweak of a word or phrase or melody line. Sometimes a lyrical change is more, like a line. Rarely do I need to do a major rewrite of a verse, chorus, bridge or entire lyric but it happens when I think there is a flaw and I need to totally revisit the theme/idea. That's been rare but has occurred.

Songwriting is often easy for me. Finishing, writing the best song I possibly can, which is what I attempt for each one, is difficult. A *lot* of work.

I am always intrigued/pissed off when I read about such-and-such major artist who says "Yeah, I wrote that in ten minutes." If these stories are true, they don't write like I do. I agonize over lyrics. And they *always* improve. We could surmise that I am just slower in wit than these savants. Which, I admit, it entirely possible. But I do always identify when famous songwriters admit to agonizing over songs to get them perfected.

I do think that there are some gifted writers who are very quick. Such as Roger Miller. I have read that about him, that he was seen as like from another planet when he hit Nashville.

BTW, I do sometimes write a song quickly, like within one hour. But almost all of them are improved, even in a minor way.

I get it. I do write them fast, often in ten or fifteen minutes. But then comes the making-it-good part, which takes weeks, sometime months, same as you. I have one song that needed all the words replaced — 100% — twice. It was like writing three different songs about the same thing. But it's good now. (Which, as I said above, doesn't mean they're done. Works in progress. There will always be room for changes.)

Writing is easy for me, too. I've written at least a couple hundred.

So when are your songs done?

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Nymuso

No. I’ve got one I started in 1972; still a work in progress. Any day now . . .

And then you can start another one!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by blews

I'd say its never done.....it can be 99%, but it seems everytime I play or perform it I find a phrase / word, or tonal pitch or riff that I like better....it never ends, which is a good thing.....

Bottle that!

[jseth]

Something I always "knew", but couldn't really put my finger on, was that every time I play one of my songs (or anyone's songs, for that matter), it is very much like a snapshot of that song, in that particular moment...

This was really borne out when I recorded my first (and only?) CD... my budget was tight, so I did not have the time to "go back" and fix things... songs came out differently than what I was expecting, what I thought they were...

I change the feel and groove of my songs frequently; sometimes I'll unearth an older song of mine and use an entirely different approach to it. Some songs are fairly well locked-in to a specific feel, though...

Playing a song in front of an audience definitely changes things... gives me a completely different impression of what the song is, what it might need...

I love jazz music, and while I would not categorize myself as a jazz musician, per se, I take the concept of that Art into every song I play... so, everything is fluid and changes from take-to-take...

[mawmow]

The recent years have seen many long career artists revisit their own songs…