How to fit into a jam made for fiddle players

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Ralph, are you the only guitar player at this Celtic/Irish tune session?

I'm not. In fact there is one woman who is one of the established players and she offered me no help at all. I was also surprised ... and not happy ... w hen at one jam she told a fiddler player that he was playing the song "wrong" and told him to play it again and we all had to stop while it became something of a "teacher-student" session instead of a group session.

The fiddler player took her instruction and nobody said a word about her conduct but I think that is uncalled for a public music setting. Especially when she told him he was playing the song incorrectly.

Everybody else seemed friendly ... but not particularly helpful.

[catt]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

But there's the Catch 22. I don't know the tunes and nobody will help me identify the tunes. As I said in another post that is the only thing I can do ... attend and then do my homework on the tunes.

Ya that's how trad has been - learning tunes by ear from other players. But we have technology; you might ask the folks, in a session on a given night, if they might not object to your recording the tunes. But if you learn by notation, it's mostly all in notation too.

*ah i didnt see your post #12. Ya that's typically what i do - utube is an incredible boon to learning musicians.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by catt

Ya that's how trad has been - learning tunes by ear from other players. But we have technology; you might ask the folks, in a session on a given night, if they might not object to your recording the tunes. But if you learn by notation, it's mostly all in notation too.

*ah i didnt see your post #12. Ya that's typically what i do - utube is an incredible boon to learning musicians.

Oh I forgot to add. Even that fell through. I found a song. Wrote down the key and then later went online and found a version and learned it pretty OK. I played it at the next jam ... and was told "Well that's not how we play it" because I had chosen a different version of the song.

One time I learned an Irish standard but not in the key they did it in. I started playing it and was stopped by the guitarist or somebody else ... and then they started playing "my" song in "their" key leaving me looking like an idiot still holding my guitar.

So I take it back when I said they are a friendly crowd. Some of them are ... but some of them are not.

Thank you folks for all of your kind observations but as many here have suggested I'm just going to pass on this group. I go to these jams/sessions to have fun ... not to be ignored and criticized. I have other people who can do that to me already.

[rllink]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

I went to two jams last year and left each time after an hour because I didn't know the songs and there were no songbooks or even list of songs. So all I could do was try to "copy" the chords used by any other guitarist there but that didn't work when I couldn't see the chord and couldn't follow rapid chord changes. I thought my out-of-time playing would be counterproductive to the group.

When I got my tune to play I did try to do a bluegrass fiddle tune on the guitar but a few members told me "That's not how we do it" or "we do that in a different key."

The country/bluegrass jam I go to is very much like that, no songbook or list of songs. Whoever wants to calls out the song and the key, then it is off to the races. We play as long as people want to play, two or three hours. A lot of socializing between songs, talking about who played what, different renditions of songs, stuff like that. At first I would sit across from someone who looked like they knew what they were doing and watch their hands. I got lost a lot. Some guitar players are easier to watch and figure out than others. Over time I became familiar with some of the regular songs, familiar with the keys, started hearing the chord progressions and picking them up on the fly. But it took a lot of time for that to happen. It wasn't just a session or two. I spent a lot of time lost in the forest trying to find my way.

I leave the fiddle tunes to the fiddlers. There are certain keys they prefer and they have their way of fiddling. That's why they are called fiddle tunes. They usually aren't particularly complicated. If I know the key I can usually sound like I might possibly have some idea what I'm doing. Again, it took me a long time to hear the chord changes and keep up. But everyone has their thing. Banjo players and mandolin players have their preferred keys. That's where the capo comes in. Embrace the key of G and the capo. That will take you quite a ways in a bluegrass jam.

In our group, it is the break. Lots of people want to take a break between verses. I got a few good natured snide comments for plowing through songs and not giving anyone a break in the beginning. I started playing Salty Dog Blues and found eight verses. I give everyone a break. It is a very popular song and I'm very popular for playing it. No one cares about how I play it, all they care about is the breaks. Don't forget the breaks. I do breaks now and I can't wait to get the nod, so I know why I was getting all those well meaning snide remarks when I didn't.

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

I am not a starter of any group (just not an "alpha male" guitarist). At bluegrass jams it is easier because many of the songs are simple three-four-five chord versions. But I agree ... we guitarists are mainly there because they more or less tolerate us.

This doesn't sound too encouraging does it? There is a similar group about an hour's drive away and they HAVE a songbook plus stuff online. But this group has none of that and no plans to have anything like that.

I played in a few jams that were a lot more structured, where we were all on an email list and got a play list to find the songs and print them out. We plowed through the play list, had a little social time packing up, and then went home. At this point I like the free-for-all marathon jams better, but there definitely has been a learning curve. But I have learned a lot from them that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. So my advise, stick in there, don't worry about it and let the fiddlers play the fiddle tunes. I think that over time it will grow on you, it certainly has on me. One thing, we don't have any bossy people at our jam, but people will just quit playing if you go off the trail somewhere and they can't pick it up. You know you are messing up when you realize you are playing solo. Good luck.

[Coler]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

tthis group plays a lot of Celtic/Irish or other fiddle tunes, many of which I've never heard about. The players, however, seem to know the songs and blaze through them one after the other, just calling out the name of the song and usually the key.

I had a very long post written out about Irish traditional session groups and some of the general/usual ‘rules’ both written and unwritten that often apply or are adopted. Unfortunately I lost the post when the screen refreshed unexpectedly. In any event it was more like a blog!

All I can say is, Ralph, that if they are playing Irish trad and similar, you just have to learn the tunes in order to play along. Best thing I can suggest is find someone who is friendly and approachable in the group and ask them to name the tunes. Write ‘em down and find them online and practice them - and sure it might turn out they play them in a different key so be ready to transpose.

Of the long post now sitting in my Notes app, I did comment that new guitarists are viewed with a lot of distrust by strict trad session players. A guitar in the wrong hands will ruin the music. You have to earn the spurs there. Be aware that not only is the key crucial, like always, but the mode too. Not all the chord changes are intuitively obvious (a lot are). The rhythm player’s job is to support the melody, which the melody players play. There’s no room for solos, improvisation or harmony lines.

Some very strict groups in Ireland have a rule of one guitar or bouzouki at a time only. To be honest I see where they are coming from. - a poorly played rhythm instrument quite literally ruins everyone’s enjoyment and more than one at the same time is likely to muddy and confuse the groove to everyone’s detriment unless the rhythm players know each other very well and are on the same page.

If I was approaching a new-to-me trad session without an invite I would probably opt to arrive early, introduce myself, explain that i was hoping to play along and would it be ok to sit down with my guitar. You would know almost immediately whether this was a welcoming group or not. They might ask if you know the music. Be candid and explain you are hoping to learn it. Again, you’ll know whether this is a good, positive environment for that. All going well you can sit down and play softly until you gain experience. Over time, where there are a few guitar players in a group, you find that they will share it around the table - you play for the first tune in the set and then I’ll take over for the second or what not. Also when things are humming and people know what they are doing, two or three guitars can be fine in reality.

I recommend you check thesession.org out for some good resources. Also there shouild be easily accessible online sources via google regarding how Irish traditional music is typically played in sessions (groups of tunes played in sets) and how session groups might often typically operate. This is all worth taking a look at.

Good luck with it

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Coler

I had a very long post written out about Irish traditional session groups and some of the general/usual ‘rules’ both written and unwritten that often apply or are adopted. Unfortunately I lost the post when the screen refreshed unexpectedly. In any event it was more like a blog!

All I can say is, Ralph, that if they are playing Irish trad and similar, you just have to learn the tunes in order to play along. Best thing I can suggest is find someone who is friendly and approachable in the group and ask them to name the tunes. Write ‘em down and find them online and practice them - and sure it might turn out they play them in a different key so be ready to transpose.

Of the long post now sitting in my Notes app, I did comment that new guitarists are viewed with a lot of distrust by strict trad session players. A guitar in the wrong hands will ruin the music. You have to earn the spurs there. Be aware that not only is the key crucial, like always, but the mode too. Not all the chord changes are intuitively obvious (a lot are). The rhythm player’s job is to support the melody, which the melody players play. There’s no room for solos, improvisation or harmony lines.

Some very strict groups in Ireland have a rule of one guitar or bouzouki at a time only. To be honest I see where they are coming from. - a poorly played rhythm instrument quite literally ruins everyone’s enjoyment and more than one at the same time is likely to muddy and confuse the groove to everyone’s detriment unless the rhythm players know each other very well and are on the same page.

If I was approaching a new-to-me trad session without an invite I would probably opt to arrive early, introduce myself, explain that i was hoping to play along and would it be ok to sit down with my guitar. You would know almost immediately whether this was a welcoming group or not. They might ask if you know the music. Be candid and explain you are hoping to learn it. Again, you’ll know whether this is a good, positive environment for that. All going well you can sit down and play softly until you gain experience. Over time, where there are a few guitar players in a group, you find that they will share it around the table - you play for the first tune in the set and then I’ll take over for the second or what not. Also when things are humming and people know what they are doing, two or three guitars can be fine in reality.

I recommend you check thesession.org out for some good resources. Also there shouild be easily accessible online sources via google regarding how Irish traditional music is typically played in sessions (groups of tunes played in sets) and how session groups might often typically operate. This is all worth taking a look at.

Good luck with it

Thank you for your reply but as I wrote I tried all that last year. Nobody would help me ... but nobody said I couldn't play. There is at least one guitarist who seems to be a "regular" at the session (the one who rudely told the other fiddler he was playing the song wrong and told him ... scolded him ... into playing a "correct" version). So nobody really was rude to me ... but nobody was helpful either.

And as for learning a Celtic or Irish tune you can go to The session.org and find there are often many, many, many versions of a song. This group seems to have fixated on one version of the song so even if I learn it in the key used by the group I may still not be doing the version they want me to do. As I said it's a Catch 22. "Learn our version note for note ... but we won't tell you what those notes are or give you a songbook or pdf or music sheet or anything else to help you."

And as I said in my recent post I've decided not to really try to fit in with this group. I may go to a session to listen to the players play and find the names of some tunes that I may enjoy playing and learning myself ... at the key I want to play the song in and the version I want to play.

I do think if I'm not being paid to perform I should be allowed to have a bit of fun ... and this seems like work ... with no vacation or paid medical.

[Birdbrain]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

I am not a starter of any group (just not an "alpha male" guitarist). At bluegrass jams it is easier because many of the songs are simple three-four-five chord versions. But I agree ... we guitarists are mainly there because they more or less tolerate us.

This doesn't sound too encouraging does it? There is a similar group about an hour's drive away and they HAVE a songbook plus stuff online. But this group has none of that and no plans to have anything like that.

It's worth the hour's drive for you to check out this other jam, if it's more welcoming. Denver's largest bluegrass jam jam, 23 years old and counting, is just 14 miles away, but it can take me an hour in the worst traffic; having attractions in the same big city doesn't mean they're convenient. You'd hope it's a two-hour jam so you play as long as you drive.

[zuzu]

Celtic/Irish string music is not old time/ bluegrass, though it is in the roots of both. The timing, cadence, and accent of rhythm, in particular, are subtle and tricky to catch. I have only attended one genuine Celtic music "jam" and I brought my banjo, thinking that since I had pretty fair experience playing a flailing style with old time fiddlers I could catch the skinny of Celtic in a few songs. I found it was nothing of the sort. I did my usual thing when I am the new guy at a jam and sat away in a corner playing along quietly with no picks until I gained my footing in this new-to-me music, but it didn't take long for me to see that the best place for me that evening was right where I was.

That jam took a couple of breaks and were quite friendly and cordial, especially one fiddler who was actually from Ireland, and I felt welcome at the jam...but none invited me to step in the circle to play. And I could easily understand why, with an out of step rhythm instrument in that circle the whole thing would lose it's nuance.

I never went back and didn't pursue Celtic music much, except for listening, for a long time, until I got into DADGAD some, and then just for my own enjoyment. But you might try returning to the jam, maybe a few times, sitting in a corner and playing along quietly to yourself as you familiarize yourself with the tunes, style, habits, and nuances of the music those particular people make together.

[Coler]

The thing about Irish trad is you have to know the tunes, and they are hard to learn.

As you develop your ear you can catch a tune very quickly - often after hearing it once - and/or intuit the chord shifts. And you need to be able identify keys & modes by ear.

You also need to know how the tunes are linked in sets.

The problem is often that an established session grouo may not see itself as offering teaching/instruction opportunities to newcomers. They just want to play the tunes. It's harsh and unwelcoming, no doubt.

To become adept at Irish trad you really need to imerse yourself in it. It's probably not feasible without some lessons, and a lot of commitment to listening to the music.

Easy for me to say.

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by Bob from Brooklyn

Personally, I’d take a pass with this group.

I agree completely. Every experience I've ever had with bluegrass and Celtic groups is that they're not open jams, they're cliques. You have to earn your chair. You go in expecting the friendly, Kumbaya spirit of old-school acoustic folk jams, and you get find something altogether different. I could give you chapter and verse, but I've experienced everything the the OP and others describe. Fiddle-dominated old thyme groups are a little better, but you'd better have a fake book. The job of a guitarist at a fiddle jam is to define the changes. That's hard to do if you don't know the changes.

[lowrider]

One reason I'd like to join the group is that the acoustic jam I've been going to for the past 12 years looks like it will be ending as the leader says he can no longer capable of doing it and nobody in our group, including me, has the time or desire to be the leader.


I recommend that you keep your group going. It's really not much work. I run a jam group and all I really do is send out 2 or 3 emails a month and get there early to set up the room. That's about it. I have an email list of about 30 names and I have between 9 and 12 players who always show up. I think that's the perfect number. It's easy, at the end of the night I tell everyone when we will meet again. The next day of so, I send out an email recapping the high lites of the jam and giving some praise the those who really rocked it.

Then I send out another email in the week before to remind everyone of the date. The usuals show up, maybe a couple more and we have a good time.

[columbia]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I agree completely. Every experience I've ever had with bluegrass and Celtic groups is that they're not open jams, they're cliques. You have to earn your chair. You go in expecting the friendly, Kumbaya spirit of old-school acoustic folk jams, and you get find something altogether different. I could give you chapter and verse, but I've experienced everything the the OP and others describe. Fiddle-dominated old thyme groups are a little better, but you'd better have a fake book. The job of a guitarist at a fiddle jam is to define the changes. That's hard to do if you don't know the changes.

That's really sad to hear. I haven't been to an Irish jam before (the main one around here is invite-only), but most old-time and bluegrass jams around here are very welcoming.

To the OP, a lot of guitarists and bassists who play old-time music around here use the Pegram Jam chord book, which is available free of charge as a pdf: http://www.pegramjam.com/chord_charts.html

Old time music can be hard to get into, especially as in an accompaniment role, but after a year or two you start to know most of the tunes called at the jam. It helps to record the jam, or at least write down the tune titles and then try to find a recording to listen to.

[BlueStarfish]

I can’t help with the social dynamics at the particular session you’ve been trying to attend. But when it comes to learning songs, two resources I’ve found very helpful are these:

Song transcriptions — the Pete Showman online archive. Pete is a fiddler, so these transcriptions and arrangements are all fiddle centric, and may not fall easily on the fretboard for a guitar player looking to flatpick tunes. But he includes chords, which is what you need. You can easily download all of his transcriptions and build your own fake book in ForScore on your ipad if you like.

https://www.showman.org/Tunes/


Chord charts — Strum Machine. It was originally built as a backing track engine (and does that very well) but also has a huge library of chord charts built into it. It displays very nicely on a smartphone screen and does both Nashville-style and letter-name chord charts. Easily transposes on the fly. I have found it is very handy, when somebody calls a tune I don’t know, to pull out Strum Machine to pull up the chord charts. I don’t get a 100% hit rate, but it seems to be at least 50-60% which is pretty amazing. Because it’s just the chords and not the melodies, it’s very easy to read in “reel time” (ha ha ha) in a jam session. It’s a $5/month subscription, which is well worth it to me.

https://strummachine.com

[keith.rogers]

I went to one, and only one, Irish/Celtic session with my fiddle when I was still learning/playing that, and decided it wasn't for me. Pretty much as described in the OP, though I never felt that my struggles were unwelcome, I will say - just too soon, and my interests have always been more to the old-time/bluegrass area, if I'm not reading some [easy] classical. It really is quite different, and if you want to attempt it, start by just going and recording a few times, then pick out the tunes you like, learn them as played, including the tempo, etc., and then go back and see how it feels. I'd not spend much time on books because you'll really need your ears to get up to speed (figuratively) on local versions.

[RoyBoy]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

Yes, you read it write ... it's a jam intended for fiddle players and fiddle tunes but guitarists are welcome as well as some other acoustic players.

I would like to play at the jams because I do like playing bluegrass fiddle tunes ... but this group plays a lot of Celtic/Irish or other fiddle tunes, many of which I've never heard about. The players, however, seem to know the songs and blaze through them one after the other, just calling out the name of the song and usually the key.

I went to two jams last year and left each time after an hour because I didn't know the songs and there were no songbooks or even list of songs. So all I could do was try to "copy" the chords used by any other guitarist there but that didn't work when I couldn't see the chord and couldn't follow rapid chord changes. I thought my out-of-time playing would be counterproductive to the group.

When I got my tune to play I did try to do a bluegrass fiddle tune on the guitar but a few members told me "That's not how we do it" or "we do that in a different key."

One reason I'd like to join the group is that the acoustic jam I've been going to for the past 12 years looks like it will be ending as the leader says he can no longer capable of doing it and nobody in our group, including me, has the time or desire to be the leader.

Any suggestions ... or should I just give up on this group? I really don't have any other options in my area. We have plenty of open mics, but I've found that I'm not an "open mic" type of player as I'm not a strong singer or instrumentalist.

Even though it is the original root of bluegrass, Celtic music is quite different from bluegrass in a couple of ways. First, the chord structure is different. Your going to encounter a lot of minor keys and often the chords move around quickly with passing chords inserted to follow the motion of the melody. If you watch a bouzouki player or a DADGAD or drop D guitarist, they'll move triads up and down the neck and not lay out full chords like we do in bluegrass. And you won't find the in between chords on a chart. It's really a different art form in and of itself. If none of the fiddlers are using sheet music (which is very normal in Irish sessions) but you use an ipad, you may be saved. There are websites where you can pull up charts for Irish (The Session) and old-timey (Tater Joes) tunes on the spot.

The other challenge is that the format of Irish sessions is different. In bluegrass, instrumentalists take turns and listen while others play and rhythm instruments drive the tempo. In Irish, everyone plays on top of each other at the same time and it is the melody instruments that drive the music. Guitarists who just thrash away loudly, filling all the space are not popular in this format.

The learning curve will be steep, but there is room for creative guitar work in Celtic music. Listening to recordings of Irish music done well to hear what guitarists do in it may be helpful.