Is There A CF Guitar That Actually Sounds As Good As The High End Wood Guitars?

denny1948golf · #1 01-14-2012, 12:01 PM

First, I'm surprised to see a sub forum for CF guitars. It has me thinking that maybe I've ignored the CF's and should take a closer look. I had played one CF (I think a Rain Song) several years ago at a local guitar show. That one didn't have much going for it in the tone department and I've pretty much ignored them ever since.

So, are there CF's that sound as good as high end all wood guitars? What's considered to be the best of the best? How do they handle electronics? It's my understanding that you don't have problems with humidity that you can with all wood construction. I'm guessing the consistency holds well with humidity changes. I've had a couple all solid wood guitars that would loose tone with just a 5% change in humidity. That said, if the CF's don't have a great acoustc tone to begin with, I wouldn't be interested..

rwskaggs · #2 01-14-2012, 12:48 PM

Like Ted at LA Guitar Sales says, "...Once you've heard a carbon fiber guitar you won't mistake it for anything else." They are clear, bell-like and somewhat 'chimey'...

My Rainsong dread has exceptional tone and responsiveness from light fingerstyle to hard strumming. I have a JJB Prestige pickup in it and with the omnidirectional top I like its sound, both amped and barefoot.

It's great to take anywhere in any weather or humidity and upon getting it out, it's still in tune. I don't leave it in the trunk in hot weather even though folks say you can - and I don't worry about it at all when Ohio winters roll through. Amplified you can adjust the tone however you like and with a modeler like the Fishman Spectrum Aura, it can come pretty close to sounding like wood...not all the way, but close.

I sold my Aura b/c I like the way the Rainsong sounds and I hate fiddling with electronics.

There will always be a market for high end or boutique guitars, and I love 'em! I'd like to own a McKnight someday...after playing them at last year's McJam, I see what all the fuss is and agree with it. But the carbon blend instruments are here to stay and only good things will happen to the sound as they improve!

mchalebk · #3 01-14-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwskaggs

Like Ted at LA Guitar Sales says, "...Once you've heard a carbon fiber guitar you won't mistake it for anything else." They are clear, bell-like and somewhat 'chimey'...

This would be true for a lot of CF guitars, but not all. The CA guitars, in particular, do not sound like other CF guitars.

The two models of CF guitars that come closest to wood are probably the CA Legacy (dreadnought) and GX (grand auditorium). Peavey has not added the Legacy to the new lineup yet, though it is planned.

If you want to try a CF guitar that sounds most like good wood, I would suggest looking for a GX or a Legacy (the Vintage models, in particular, are reminiscent of old Martin dreads).

Some newer RainSong models have been noted to be much warmer than their traditional models. I've read that the hybrid models and ones with unidirectional tops are much woodier sounding.

denny1948golf · #4 01-14-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mchalebk

This would be true for a lot of CF guitars, but not all. The CA guitars, in particular, do not sound like other CF guitars.

The two models of CF guitars that come closest to wood are probably the CA Legacy (dreadnought) and GX (grand auditorium). Peavey has not added the Legacy to the new lineup yet, though it is planned.

If you want to try a CF guitar that sounds most like good wood, I would suggest looking for a GX or a Legacy (the Vintage models, in particular, are reminiscent of old Martin dreads).

Some newer RainSong models have been noted to be much warmer than their traditional models. I've read that the hybrid models and ones with unidirectional tops are much woodier sounding.

I like a warmer tone in my acoustics, but I still want a clear articulate tone. I don't care for guitars that are overly chimey. How about sustain and overtones with CF guitars?

By the way, what is a "CA"?

rwskaggs · #5 01-14-2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny1948golf

I like a warmer tone in my acoustics, but I still want a clear articulate tone. I don't care for guitars that are overly chimey. How about sustain and overtones with CF guitars?

By the way, what is a "CA"?

CA refers to the old "Composite Acoustics" line which is now owned by Peavey.

Sustain and overtones with my dread are great, but there IS a little bit of the clear carbon / fiberglass ring...some call it chimey. It has the hybrid top, BTW.... Even so, now that I've owned and played it this year, I'd never mistake it for wood in a blindfold test.

Best thing you can do is play some, or even call Ted at LA Guitar Sales and have him play a couple over the phone like he did for me...

RP · #6 01-14-2012, 02:34 PM

We can go on and on about CF tone, but as The Tinman said, there's really no substitute for playing some. Given that, I think the mistake some folks make when auditioning them is failing to appreciate what they are and focusing instead on what they are not, i.e. wood....

Kindness · #7 01-14-2012, 02:39 PM

The sustain on the Rainsong guitars is amazing. And I also believe that Rainsong's guitars with the unidirectional tops sound very woody and warm.

It's tough to try the Rainsongs out as not even the GCs stock them. So get on the road trip at MacNichols, or perhaps, buy one from a retailer like MF that has a very generous return policy.

Carbon Fiber guitars have evolved, and will continue to do so. When I played a rainsong 6 years ago I did not care for it at all. Today, they are a different guitar completely.

CF Guitar manufacturers are innovators. You will see the sound get very close to that of wood. Honestly, if someone would post a recording of a wood guitar and then the same tune on a Rainsong, I do not believe you would be able to tell the difference!

denny1948golf · #8 01-14-2012, 02:56 PM

Well, I came across this on youtube and I like what I'm hearing in the video. Am I correct in assuming the consistency of the CF's in the exact same models is very close? You know how it is with solid wood guitars, two guitars of the exact same model can be night and day from each other. If they are close, it would make buying one on line less of a risk.

Check out this video and let's hear your opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wpwbxNNWSE

rwskaggs · #9 01-14-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny1948golf

Well, I came across this on youtube and I like what I'm hearing in the video. Am I correct in assuming the consistency of the CF's in the exact same models is very close? You know how it is with solid wood guitars, two guitars of the exact same model can be night and day from each other. If they are close, it would make buying one on line less of a risk.

Check out this video and let's hear your opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wpwbxNNWSE

The two Concert series sounded pretty close to identical to me. The Black Ice Jumbo had better bass and note separation. (BTW, I wrote this before he got to his monologue at the end which said the same thing)

I played two of the OM sizes prior to getting my dread, and noticed the Black Ice vs. the gloss H series had the same qualities. Caveat: Very limited hands-on exposure on my part....

Matt McGriff · #10 01-14-2012, 04:10 PM

This is what sold me. Listen to the sound clip of the Rainsong and then browse the podium site and listen to others. The Rainsong holds its own in the tone dept in my opinion.

http://www.thepodium.com/p-17111-rai...eadnought.aspx

HD28
http://www.thepodium.com/p-14502-martin-hd-28.aspx

DN4
http://www.thepodium.com/p-14611-taylor-dn4.aspx

SpruceTop · #11 01-14-2012, 04:25 PM

Frankly, I don't care if carbon guitars sound close to wood or not. Carbon, especially all-graphite (carbon) guitars like the high-end RainSongs, have a tone that is a nice alternative to wood. A good carbon guitar is a full-sounding, resonant instrument that I'm sure most guitarists would enjoy as an alternative to their fine wooden guitars. Why not have both tones in your sonic palette? Carbon is still a fairly new instrument-construction medium and companies like RainSong, Emerald, Ovation Adamas, Blackbird and Composite Acoustics all offer there own take on form and tone in carbon-guitar building. There are also a few small builders using it and as we move forward I'm sure there'll be more crafters with their carbon offerings. Carbon is here to stay and my prediction is that most guitarists will eventually own a carbon guitar.

Regards,

RainDance (aka SpruceTop when lignified)

mchalebk · #12 01-14-2012, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denny1948golf

I like a warmer tone in my acoustics, but I still want a clear articulate tone. I don't care for guitars that are overly chimey. How about sustain and overtones with CF guitars?

By the way, what is a "CA"?

For "warmer" and "clear articulate tone", I would suggest you check out the CA GX or Legacy (regular, not vintage). (Of course, Legacy would have to be used, since they're not making them at this time, but these can be easily found.)

I'm no good at describing things like sustain and overtones. I will say this: I honestly believe that 99% of guitarists would not be able to tell that my Vintage Performer (same as Vintage Legacy) is not made of wood by playing it or hearing it (as long as they don't look too close and notice the carbon burst finish).

Someone already mentioned it, but CA is Composite Acoustics. They differ from the other CF manufacturers in that they utilize bracing. It's not needed for structural reasons, but they figured out you need them if you wanted a CF guitar to sound like a traditional wood guitar. They went out of business for a while, then were bought by Peavey. Peavey has run into issues getting their production line up to speed, but they're starting to turn out guitars again. All the CF manufacturers make nice guitars. CA, though, is the only one that tries hard to make their guitars sound like traditional guitars.

wcap · #13 01-14-2012, 05:42 PM

When I was doing some really serious extended guitar shopping a few years ago at The Podium I tried out a CA or two that they had hanging in their high end guitar room next to some great Martins. The CA's were really nice guitars. I'm a bit ashamed that I did not take them more seriously at the time - I was biased by the fact that they were not wood, and they didn't fit my preconceived notion of what I was looking for. In terms of sound and playability, and everything that really matters in an instrument, they actually did strike me as being in the same league as the guitars they were hanging next to (and they must have also thought so at The Podium - they are pretty choosy about what they sell there!).

denny1948golf · #14 01-14-2012, 05:51 PM

Of the CF builders, is there one that stands out from the rest? Who builds the most expensive models? Who offers the largest selection?

AndyFrank · #15 01-14-2012, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwskaggs

Like Ted at LA Guitar Sales says, "...Once you've heard a carbon fiber guitar you won't mistake it for anything else." They are clear, bell-like and somewhat 'chimey'...

He also says that CA's "fake" the wood tone the best which is also true, but don't expect a CA GX to sound like your D-28 unless your D-28 is soaking wet.

I bought my GX from Ted about three or four years ago because like he said, it faked the wood tone very nicely, but after a while I noticed that the extremely thick construction eats up most of the overtones so today I might opt for a Rainsong WS instead for the added clarity.

BTW, a brand that splits the difference between CA and Rainsong quite nicely is Blackbird. I played all their models at LA Guitar Sales and was very impressed. The Super OM falls a little closer to CA tonally but without the muddines, and if you like throaty Gibson like tone the Blackbird Lucky 13 is a killer guitar, I totally forgot I was playing carbon.