Acoustic Duo, Filling This Space

[fitness1]

I've played some pretty crazy rooms myself and have found that "professional standards" kind of go out the window in regard to solo or duo acoustic amplification in a loud, small room - many times that isn't even really "one" room (think L shaped) You have to be creative a lot of the time to make what you have work.

My suggestion was based on the most simple way for the OP to achieve his goal.

My guess is there wouldn't be too many in the audience with their spectrum analyzers handy.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by fitness1

I've played some pretty crazy rooms myself and have found that "professional standards" kind of go out the window in regard to solo or duo acoustic amplification in a loud, small room - many times that isn't even really "one" room (think L shaped) You have to be creative a lot of the time to make what you have work.

My suggestion was based on the most simple way for the OP to achieve his goal.

My guess is there wouldn't be too many in the audience with their spectrum analyzers handy.

It's never wrong to do it right. Knowing how to do it right is another thing.

Edit:

My "spectrum analyzers" are my ears.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

The only impression intended is that my recommendations come from decades of experience on both sides of the mic, not just casual association...not that there's anything wrong with doing it for fun.

So you're implying that the rest of us don't have decades of experience and that we're not serious, as we're apparently just doing it for fun in your view?

You may be an expert in the field, but one thing experts tend to overlook is that if someone using a different approach is still satisfying their customers, then maybe their approach still holds validity. Too.

Nothing wrong with your suggesting that there may be problems in a given venue, with a given setup, but to ridicule others for getting the job done in a different manner than you would have? Make suggestions, for sure, but leaving the ridicule out of it, how hard is that?

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

My "spectrum analyzers" are my ears.

Yeah - me too

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

It's never wrong to do it right. Knowing how to do it right is another thing.

Ironic that you've got this as your signature line. " Theory is the post mortem of Music. "

Glad that all the happy venue owners and customers over the years didn't have you to inform them of how unhappy they've been with me.

My "spectrum analyzers" are my ears.

There you go again with your 'my ears are better than your ears'.

Grade school kids, some never grow up, they just look older.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

You're welcome and thanks for reading and replying. I'll just post a few more thoughts on such endeavors in general.

1. Noise begets noise. The louder the clatter from the kitchen, the louder everyone talks, etc and so on. Add amplified music and the amplification suffers diminishing returns in that the more you turn it up, the louder the people talk until some kind of equilibrium is reached. This is not usually pleasant and I'll confess that if I'm with friends in an establishment having some food or other refreshment and someone shows up carrying instruments and a PA we leave because we know that no matter how good the music might be, the scenario is just wrong.

2. There is a distinct difference between volume and coherence. The amorphous racket coming out of that kitchen blended with the sounds from the people in the room are just noise. A single coherent sound such as a flute, violin or the like will "cut" through not because it's loud, but rather because it's coherent, focused sound. Column array speakers are not great at putting out coherent sound. Neither are cheap point source speakers. It takes a fairly advanced professional level speaker to maintain superior fidelity and control over the full operating range of frequencies. This is costly and gets heavy pretty quickly.

3. Height is your friend. Once you have found a speaker you can live with (and I would only use a single speaker in that room), you'll want it on a stand and well above head level of standing folks if ceiling height allows. Effectiveness will be greatly improved by adding some tilt brackets (K&M make simple affordable ones) to your speaker stands to aim the sound toward the listeners instead of straight at the opposite wall. There are several good reasons why, but I've already gone on too long.

Bottom line: Don't fight battles you can't win, respect the staff who have to work in all that hubbub and enjoy yourselves. People like happy musicians.

Good luck.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I am a longtime Bose L1 Model 2 user and I never run into the problem you described from a lack of a focused speaker. I am not saying your comments are false, I believe the reality will be if you put a speaker up 6 ft or more you won't be covering somewhere. You may also need a monitor for yourself which will just muddy up the sonic clarity unnecessarily.

In the restaurant setting, your goal isn't to be the loudest thing in the room. You need to 1) hear yourself 2) be good enough that on occasion people stop and listen to you. 3) not blow people out of the restaurant. I think if a restaurant would plant small speakers in the ceiling from all sides of the room that would be ideal.

I think a tower style still is the best solution for this situation. It covers a lot of bases well.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

In the restaurant setting, your goal isn't to be the loudest thing in the room. You need to 1) hear yourself 2) be good enough that on occasion people stop and listen to you. 3) not blow people out of the restaurant. I think if a restaurant would plant small speakers in the ceiling from all sides of the room that would be ideal.

I think a tower style still is the best solution for this situation. It covers a lot of bases well.

Great post and I've often considered getting some small rechargeable satellites run wirelessly to get sound everywhere without having to worry about coverage.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

There you go again with your 'my ears are better than your ears.

I have never made that statement. Please do not put words in my mouth.

All that means is that ears tell us what sounds clear and intelligible while spectrum analyzers just tell us what frequencies are present and in what proportion. How that sounds is another matter entirely.

Again, please do not put your own interpretation of someone elses post as what they said when they didn't say it.

Thanks.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

I believe the reality will be if you put a speaker up 6 ft or more you won't be covering somewhere.

If you look back to the post about speaker height you'll notice that I also mentioned using K&M tilters on the stands to focus the sound directly onto the listning area. Coverage should be complete...and one result of using the available height is that it tends to even out the over-all sound level front>back a bit, taking some of the pressure off of the front rows so you don't toast them trying to get sound to the back rows.

You may also need a monitor for yourself which will just muddy up the sonic clarity unnecessarily.

Monitoring is a very personal thing and a good example of "one size does not fit all." What you need andvwhat I need are probably way different. When I started out, nobody used monitors and I never really got into the habit of using them. Old dog, no new tricks, I guess.

But you are correct that monitors are often used or mis-used in ways which detracts from the overall sound quality. It can be tricky indeed.

In the restaurant setting, your goal isn't to be the loudest thing in the room. You need to 1) hear yourself 2) be good enough that on occasion people stop and listen to you. 3) not blow people out of the restaurant.

Absolutely. Agree 100%.

I think if a restaurant would plant small speakers in the ceiling from all sides of the room that would be ideal.

I think a tower style still is the best solution for this situation. It covers a lot of bases well.

I have done dozens of installs in such establishments where they wanted good "user operable" systems: plug'n'play. But they all took the trouble to have an actual performing area where a couple of tables could be moved off of an 8" high riser. Would the OP should be so lucky...

Column array rigs in such situations have some advantages...small footprint being foremost. It would be interesting to do a direct comparison of a single point source cabinet and an L1, but with the performers just jammed into the smallest area possible and no elevation a lot of things quickly become moot leaving us looking not for the best but trying to avoid the worst.

As I said: try not to fight battles you can't win, but if you're going to take an instrument to a battle, why not this?

https://youtu.be/9gbctDg4lTo

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

Great post and I've often considered getting some small rechargeable satellites run wirelessly to get sound everywhere without having to worry about coverage.

Not a bad idea, but you'd need to be able to delay the extension speakers back to the mains unless the system is down-firing from the ceilng. It can be done with todays compact digital mixers using IEM rigs for the sends to the delay speakers. I've used this occasionally.

One possible consideration, though, is (again) logistical. Not only do you need the space for some kind of speaker support and either AC power or battery powered speakers, but you also need to have the time to set them up without (in this case) interfering with the establishment workers and work flow while deploying the rig. In the restaurant biz that's no small potatoes.

Maybe Bluetooth speakers might work, but I suspect they might have other unanticipated problems. Maybe worth a try, though. Who knows. It might ge a good gimmick as lng as nobody walks off with them while you're playing.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

So you're implying that the rest of us don't have decades of experience and that we're not serious, as we're apparently just doing it for fun in your view?

In a word, no.

I would have just said no, but a message must contain at least 10 characters to post.

[Chriscom]

I want to emphasize how much teachin' I've gotten from people who have successfully used different types of amplification (or none!). Great respect to all.

Random notes:

That place was indeed a bright, reflective space. As far as keeping the 15 is concerned, one of my main missions in life is to not keep it--I won't survive its mass, even with a crank or otherwise-assisted stand. Just thinking about it depresses me. And that's no way to do showbiz!

I *think* that most members of both the line array and speaker clans think I could do with slightly less, especially given the character of my duo, essentially acoustic in nature: vocal, guitar, keyboards. Obviously I don't want to lose the rich lower tones of even my gig Martin (a GPRS1) and what I understand to be the lower range of a keyboard, but we're not a rockin' blues duo so I can probably worry less about that. The 15 *plus* a 10 could send me over the edge, to busking a flute, for example.

If I contemplated adding satellites, well I would just go straight to mime. It's primed for a comeback in the pubs.

I *do* want to do it as right as possible, which to me means getting the most high-quality impact I can with as simple a system as possible. Obviously simplicity is a big reason I'm looking at line arrays. I've also been seduced by what I've read about dispersion, both to the left and right and towards the rear without blowing away people up front. *And* the claim that at least in some spaces, it could do away with the need for monitors. Monitors were an issue that night.

Remember, this isn't the only place we've played, but I posted it because I expect it will be about the largest place we'll foreseeably play with our own system.

To the guy who has played some crazy spaces--yeah. Another place we play is a pub. Good: We play through the house system, and I'm up on a riser with a monitor to my left (sometimes!) and at least one of the speakers over my head somewhere--never have a feedback issue. Less good: My keyboard partner is at a piano up against the wall down on the main floor, in front of my riser. We hear completely different things. Wild card: The house system also delivers music to an outdoor patio. I have no idea what that sounds like. It is a distant land that may not actually exist.

Now, it's not my problem because it works well enough and the owner is happy, so I'm happy. But I do anticipate playing in spaces just like his interior bar, using our own equipment. It's smaller and narrower than the linked photo, probably a bit less reflective. And as I picture it, a single elevated speaker, maybe even without a tilt, would probably work great there.

I have done dozens of installs in such establishments where they wanted good "user operable" systems: plug'n'play. But they all took the trouble to have an actual performing area where a couple of tables could be moved off of an 8" high riser. Would the OP should be so lucky...

Hell yeah.

[martingitdave]

Chriscom, that was a very enjoyable post. Good luck finding a good lightweight system with enough bottom end. With the line array systems the heavy stuff sits on the ground. Yes! Good options are out there. Just be prepared to drive a little to test them. If I failed to mention it, the RCF Evox might be a good option for you to consider.

[necrome]

May I know which are the current recommendations from the community for rechargeable wireless satellite speakers? ) I don't think you guys mean the normal Bluetooth speakers that we use with our phones and tablets right? Because I don't see how we can transfer live music to them without some sort of transmitter.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

I have never made that statement. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Your tone was coming across that way in a few posts to one of the other members and while you didn't make that statement it really felt that you were looking down on others here.

After reading back through your posts I guess you were just trying to be helpful and at the same time explaining your credentials so that we'd know you have a good number of years experience.

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Maybe Bluetooth speakers might work, but I suspect they might have other unanticipated problems. Maybe worth a try, though. Who knows. It might be a good gimmick as long as nobody walks off with them while you're playing.

What I saw another guy doing last month in the Japanese garden was piping music all throughout the entire garden using regular wireless units like we'd have onstage. I have no immediate plans but if I do see a high quality compact, flyable speaker with rechargeable runtimes of at least six hours, I could get interested very quickly. I'm already doing that with my lights and it's worth the extra weight to no longer have to look for ways to run cables to them. Love to do the same with a pair of room satellites.

Originally Posted by Wyllys

In a word, no.

I would have just said no, but a message must contain at least 10 characters to post.

LoL!