Acoustic Duo, Filling This Space

[Johnny.guitar]

I use a Bose L1C and quite often it's right beside me only a few feet away.
I did have a bit of feedback issues originally but since pairing it with
a Behringer XR16 it's been fantastic. So yes optimally it's best to have it behind and to the side but with a good digital mixer with a good gate and parametric eq it can be set quite close with no issues.
I still have my Traynor P10 powered speakers that sound fantastic.....but once I got the Bose dialled in I have not used them at all.
The dispersion of the Bose array system is so superior to a standard speaker.
No more killing those in front and anyone to the side gets a muffled mess.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by lschwart

I agree with those that suggest there might be some problems with one of those tower units in a tight space like this.

As an owner of an L1 II and having used it in many tight spaces over the years, I'd say line array tower units are the best option available, and it's been my experience as a multiple L1 owner that led me to the Eon One.

if you're concerned about there not being enough bottom in a 10" or 12" conventional PA speaker for keyboard, simply have your friend audition a few at a local store with his keyboard or a similar one in stock at the store. At small acoustic gig volume levels, I think you'll be surprised at how well a powered PA speaker can work for keyboard.

A big +1 to this.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

As an owner of an L1 II and having used it in many tight spaces over the years, I'd say line array tower units are the best option available, and it's been my experience as a multiple L1 owner that led me to the Eon One.

My own experience with them for an ensemble has been mixed. When there's enough room behind, they have worked very well, but when they had to be behind and too near, so they could operate for both monitoring and the house, we've had problems getting even monitoring and have had to supplement with some wedges--or use wedges with the tower out front to one side.

I'm not saying they can't be used in tight spots--people use them that way, so I suppose that there are clever ways of doing so--or perhaps the monitoring in those situations has been easier to achieve than they were in mine. But I've never had trouble using conventional speakers in all sort of contexts.

Louis

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by Johnny.guitar

I did have a bit of feedback issues originally but since pairing it with a Behringer XR16 it's been fantastic. So yes optimally it's best to have it behind and to the side but with a good digital mixer with a good gate and parametric eq it can be set quite close with no issues...

If you don't mind elaborating, do you think that's because it's a *digital* mixer, or would any high-quality mixer get that result, analog or digital?

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Chriscom

If you don't mind elaborating, do you think that's because it's a *digital* mixer, or would any high-quality mixer get that result, analog or digital?

Analog and digital, no difference as long as they offer the same features. The advantage of the current compact digital mxers is simply that they have all the EQ, fx and dynamic processing you'd want built right in whereas a comparable analog unit would need that processing available from outboard units in a separate rack.

Having played many such cramped venues over the past 50+ years I'll offer this:

I own my own sound company and still play solo stuff. For rooms like that I've never used any sound gear...and I have lots of different stuff available. But then back when I started, NOBODY was using PA for that size room. Some changed. I never did.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use electronic assistance, just that there exists an alternative approach. It's lighter weight and costs nothing. In most cases such as this it can work just as well. It always has for me.

Edit:

I do use a tall chair to get the sound out above the crowd. It's a 29" tall folding Franklin bar stool from IKEA.

[Chriscom]

For rooms like that I've never used any sound gear...and I have lots of different stuff available. But then back when I started, NOBODY was using PA for that size room. Some changed. I never did.

Thanks much for replying to my mixer question, as well as the above--you have more experience than I ever will. But that was one noisy room, including with a working kitchen right behind my head, and I can't imagine more than the first few rows hearing anything meaningful from us without a sound system. Sign of the times no doubt. Also, I don't have a voice that could project over a guitar plus keyboards (putting aside that's an electronic keyboard) plus penetrating with my partner's voice. I know that type of thing was common in the past.

I *can* imagine a good bluegrass band with a D-28, a loud banjo and fiddle and mandolin and theatrical-quality vocalists cutting through much of that, but that ain't me.

There's a club singer of the 1950's and early 60's named Julie London. She was successful in her time and revered by many who are fans of that era. She sang very softly and conversationally, and I've read interviews where she said she'd never been a success before amplified sound.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Chriscom

For rooms like that I've never used any sound gear...and I have lots of different stuff available. But then back when I started, NOBODY was using PA for that size room. Some changed. I never did.

Thanks much for replying to my mixer question, as well as the above--you have more experience than I ever will. But that was one noisy room, including with a working kitchen right behind my head, and I can't imagine more than the first few rows hearing anything meaningful from us without a sound system. Sign of the times no doubt. Also, I don't have a voice that could project over a guitar plus keyboards (putting aside that's an electronic keyboard) plus penetrating with my partner's voice. I know that type of thing was common in the past.

I *can* imagine a good bluegrass band with a D-28, a loud banjo and fiddle and mandolin and theatrical-quality vocalists cutting through much of that, but that ain't me.

There's a club singer of the 1950's and early 60's named Julie London. She was successful in her time and revered by many who are fans of that era. She sang very softly and conversationally, and I've read interviews where she said she'd never been a success before amplified sound.

You're welcome and thanks for reading and replying. I'll just post a few more thoughts on such endeavors in general.

1. Noise begets noise. The louder the clatter from the kitchen, the louder everyone talks, etc and so on. Add amplified music and the amplification suffers diminishing returns in that the more you turn it up, the louder the people talk until some kind of equilibrium is reached. This is not usually pleasant and I'll confess that if I'm with friends in an establishment having some food or other refreshment and someone shows up carrying instruments and a PA we leave because we know that no matter how good the music might be, the scenario is just wrong.

2. There is a distinct difference between volume and coherence. The amorphous racket coming out of that kitchen blended with the sounds from the people in the room are just noise. A single coherent sound such as a flute, violin or the like will "cut" through not because it's loud, but rather because it's coherent, focused sound. Column array speakers are not great at putting out coherent sound. Neither are cheap point source speakers. It takes a fairly advanced professional level speaker to maintain superior fidelity and control over the full operating range of frequencies. This is costly and gets heavy pretty quickly.

3. Height is your friend. Once you have found a speaker you can live with (and I would only use a single speaker in that room), you'll want it on a stand and well above head level of standing folks if ceiling height allows. Effectiveness will be greatly improved by adding some tilt brackets (K&M make simple affordable ones) to your speaker stands to aim the sound toward the listeners instead of straight at the opposite wall. There are several good reasons why, but I've already gone on too long.

Bottom line: Don't fight battles you can't win, respect the staff who have to work in all that hubbub and enjoy yourselves. People like happy musicians.

Good luck.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by lschwart

My own experience with them for an ensemble has been mixed.

Fortunately for the OP, he's in a duo.

I'm not saying they can't be used in tight spots--people use them that way...I've never had trouble using conventional speakers in all sort of contexts.

Yes, I have been, because tight spaces is usually what a solo act gets.

I didn't have too much trouble using my JBL's on stands with another on the floor for monitoring and my rack of...oh, yeah, that's only one of the reasons I got rid of the old system.

For the purposes of this thread I think one of the newer line arrays systems will work pretty nicely.

[Chriscom]

Thanks for the additional readouts, supremely helpful. Inevitably for me the learning will come from the doing, but sheesh I appreciate the free consult!

It's funny, it's like if you're a car nut and someone mentions a new model, suddenly you see it all over the place even though it was there all along. Thanks to these comments, both those who favor line array and others favoring a quality speaker, now when I watch live demo videos I'm paying very close attention to PA/amp/line array placement. Obviously I can't determine the quality of the sound from a 15" laptop, but you start noticing patterns.

Those patterns were there all along, but now I'm seeing them.

[fitness1]

That room looks very "bright and reflective" - I'd consider keeping the 15 and putting a 10 on a pole. Try to keep the frequencies going to the 15 in the low range and use it as a quasi subwoofer to warm up the sound in the bright room.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by fitness1

That room looks very "bright and reflective" - I'd consider keeping the 15 and putting a 10 on a pole. Try to keep the frequencies going to the 15 in the low range and use it as a quasi subwoofer to warm up the sound in the bright room.

Just a couple of cautions on this approach...well, one caution and one observation.

1. With the limited space there isn't likely to be space for a second speaker, either in the air or on the deck. Observation.

2. Without a proper crossover, having two output devices sharing frequencies (however limited the overlap) will raise issues of sound coherence and quality in the room. EQ cannot remedy this. First you'll double the amount of reflections and time arrivals for the listeners, smearing the sound. Second you'll have some comb filtering. This won't be a deal breaker, but in a situation where clarity and fidelity are paramount I'd really recommend staying with a single full range speaker...especially in such a marginal performing environment.

The one single advantage I can see with column array packages is the presence of a separate low frequency module utilizing a proper built-in crossover. I'm not thrilled with the audio quality of the columns, but...

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Just a couple of cautions on this approach...well, one caution and one observation.

1. With the limited space there isn't likely to be space for a second speaker, either in the air or on the deck. Observation.

2. Without a proper crossover, having two output devices sharing frequencies (however limited the overlap) will raise issues of sound coherence and quality in the room. EQ cannot remedy this. First you'll double the amount of reflections and time arrivals for the listeners, smearing the sound. Second you'll have some comb filtering. This won't be a deal breaker, but in a situation where clarity and fidelity are paramount I'd really recommend staying with a single full range speaker...especially in such a marginal performing environment.

The one single advantage I can see with column array packages is the presence of a separate low frequency module utilizing a proper built-in crossover. I'm not thrilled with the audio quality of the columns, but...

Interesting - I've made that kind of thing work incredibly well over the last 40 years.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by fitness1

Interesting - I've made that kind of thing work incredibly well over the last 40 years.

Disclaimer:

I own a sound company and work live sound, recording and live broadcast as well as having been a working musician since 1968. I am biased towards professional standards.

What works for you is good for you. No argument. What I recommend according to my experience is free for the taking. If you want to try it, it's there.
Maybe you or someone else following along might gain something by having a choice of approaches.

Personally, I perform without amplification.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Disclaimer:

I own a sound company and work live sound, recording and live broadcast as well as having been a working musician since 1968. I am biased towards professional standards.

Personally, I perform without amplification.

Wow - that's impressive.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by fitness1

Wow - that's impressive.

The only impression intended is that my recommendations come from decades of experience on both sides of the mic, not just casual association...not that there's anything wrong with doing it for fun. I just thought there might be some interest in the actual physics of sound and acoustics as applied to everyday challenges.