Regretting changes to my Tanglewood TW28 - did I do the wrong thing

[Guitars+gems]

Don't stress over this. I understand how you feel - I hate wasting money, makes me feel guilty. But what's done is done, and after all it's not that you wasted the whole 300, right? Because you liked the guitar before this set up. So maybe you spent 60 bucks more than a typical set up would have cost. It's only 60 bucks you wasted. That's what, a dinner out for 2?

You have options here. First, you could try just playing it for a week or so. Your ear may be come accustomed to the sound, and maybe the guitar will even open up a bit. And then as other posts have suggested, you can experiment with strings and picks. While you've got the strings off you could try dropping in the original saddle, or even shimming the new saddle. You could tell the tech of your dissatisfaction and ask him to improve things. There should be no further charge.

One thing I'm curious about though, is the lowering of the frets. I've never heard of that being part of a set up. Were the frets especially high?

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

So I followed some of the advice I received in another thread on the forum about the Tanglewood TW28 (with M1 pickup installed) and took it to a luthier. He checked the action and the frets and recommended to lower the action (my preference) from what he said was "medium" action. In order to do that he recommended adjusting the fret level and he did a number of other things like bridge hole slotting to match the angle of the bridge pin. And he also recommended to change the nut and saddle to bone from the nubone original. I took the full service and it cost $120.

So now I find myself with a guitar that I got for just $180 - but I spent another $120 on it. For another $100 I could have bought the TW40 O AN which I still would have had to set up, but wouldn't have needed bone nut and saddle because it comes with that.

I am experiencing "buyers remorse" because I may have spent too much on it. And now I am not sure if the changes were a step up. The sound is clear and sounds higher quality than before - but also "thinner". Before it was thicker, but less clear.

Wonder what others think who have had such an experience.

Recently picked up a Takamines GS330S which is a very similar guitar (dreadnought, solid cedar top, lam b&s) swapped the plastic saddle for bone and had the same type of experience, thinner sound! Swap the saddle back and see what happens. I think there's something about the cedar top.

[Seagull S6]

Originally Posted by guitargeak99

I once lowered the action on a Seagull Folk size Guitar and it did change the sound. Not necessarily the tone, but the guitar wasn’t as loud or full.

I’ve always wondered what effect lowering the action has on volume.
Or if my situation was just an isolated case.

That was my thought. The action might just be too low. One symptom of to low an action are that the guitar can sound anemic. I figured this out on my Gibby years ago.

Hard to say without seeing it, There could be a very real chance that the Luthier made the action as low as possible just to show off his work and/or because the OP specified a low (maybe to low) of an action. Raising the action some/slightly would probably bring the bloom back. He should go back to his Luthier with his impressions. A good Luthier would understand completely.

[AgentKooper]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

One thing I'm curious about though, is the lowering of the frets. I've never heard of that being part of a set up. Were the frets especially high?

I’m assuming he meant a fret level, to make sure the frets were all the same height. Not unusual, especially with a guitar at that price range.

[Brucebubs]

Did your 'luthier' change the strings?
If he did then what did he use?
Your description reads like he might have fitted 80/20's and the sound you want is PB - easy fix.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

One thing I'm curious about though, is the lowering of the frets. I've never heard of that being part of a set up. Were the frets especially high?

Originally Posted by AgentKooper

I’m assuming he meant a fret level, to make sure the frets were all the same height. Not unusual, especially with a guitar at that price range.

I presume when he said "In order to lower the action, the luthier recommended adjusting the fret level", he meant the distance between the frets and the strings will be lower?

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

Don't stress over this. I understand how you feel - I hate wasting money, makes me feel guilty. But what's done is done, and after all it's not that you wasted the whole 300, right? Because you liked the guitar before this set up. So maybe you spent 60 bucks more than a typical set up would have cost. It's only 60 bucks you wasted. That's what, a dinner out for 2?

You have options here. First, you could try just playing it for a week or so. Your ear may be come accustomed to the sound, and maybe the guitar will even open up a bit. And then as other posts have suggested, you can experiment with strings and picks. While you've got the strings off you could try dropping in the original saddle, or even shimming the new saddle. You could tell the tech of your dissatisfaction and ask him to improve things. There should be no further charge.

One thing I'm curious about though, is the lowering of the frets. I've never heard of that being part of a set up. Were the frets especially high?

He said he had to level or lower the frets in order to lower the action or else there would be buzz. Thx

[iceinbangkok]

I appreciate so many valuable replies and insights. I did "cheap out" when I bought the guitar - I felt my playing level didn't warrant spending more. I have since practiced a lot in the last year and at the least enjoy it a lot, if not improving significantly. I am not ready to buy my dream guitar so I thought that taking this one to luthier would be a good interim thing to do.

The 2 biggest changes to sound would have been the lowering of the action and the bone nut/saddle. I realise as someone said, I shouldn't have had him do both at once. I play around with tennis rackets strings and should have known better. And as others have also said this is valuable learning experience.

Regarding the strings, initially when I got it back it was the same strings. I didn't realize how much they would get stretched in the process and they were new so I had asked to keep them on. It sounded really thin and when I asked him he said changing the strings was needed. So I did (same kind Elixir 12s) and the sound did improve. But after a day playing I felt like it was still not as full as before and hence the miserable post.

I can see that if the new strings made a difference then changing to a heavier gauge might also make a further difference to the sound. But one more thing I am bothered by is that I still have buzzing on chord changes which is something I thought a set up might improve. Lowering the action probably didn't help. And I am guessing heavier strings might actually make that worse?

I have gained a lot from the experience and this thread. I am not badly off and at a stage of my guitar playing where I should just knuckle down and get the most out of the guitar I can. I will consider taking back to the luthier and ask him to adjust the action back up again.

Thanks for all the replies and advice

[ChrisN]

I experimented on my Recording King (0 size) to see if I could recreate your problem with a saddle reduction to get lower action. My original saddle's exposure (middle of saddle) measured 4.5mm, which is plenty. Action at the 12th fret bass E string was 2.30mm. Guitar sounded great with light strings (.12).

I changed the saddle for a lower one that allowed the 12th fret E action to be at 1.52mm (.78mm reduction due to saddle change). Because the neck on my guitar is slightly overset, the exposed saddle height was still more than acceptable (Martin's recommended saddle exposure range = >2.45mm - <4.80mm - my lowered saddle's exposed area was 3.17mm), despite the greatly reduced action. Kept the same strings.

Sound is subjectively interpreted, but the guitar sounded thin/nasal/quiet with the reduced saddle. The good quality sound was restored once I reinstalled the original saddle.

Your luthier lowered your saddle height to lower your action, and he may have gone further than healthy to get you the action you wanted (more likely, if your guitar needs a neck reset). How much of your saddle is exposed (max height above bridge, in middle of saddle)?

What causes this loss of sound from lowering the saddle/action? I'm not sure. It doesn't make sense to me that just having your strings closer to the fretboard (and, by a small margin) should affect the sound, so the obvious place to look is the amount of exposed saddle height, as the saddle transmits sonic energy into the guitar's interior. Too little saddle could make a difference, I suspect. Another variable to consider is the saddle string height above the sound board - should be about 12.7mm (1/2"). Saddle too low? Then maybe strings are too close to the soundboard? I don't know.

If that's true, then why did my RK sound bad when it still had plenty of exposed saddle and low action? I don't know.

Anyway, my suggestion is to take it back to the luthier and ask him (1) does my guitar's neck angle suggest the need for a reset? and (2) if the answer to (1) is "no," then please install a taller saddle (yes, more cost, likely $40-50 USD here) to establish 12th fret E string action at 2.30mm (6/64, .0905").

If the answer to question (1) is "yes," then he likely definitely had to over-reduce the saddle to get you your desired action, and it will be unlikely, pending a cost-prohibitive reset, that you will be able to have decent sound and low action. I raise the reset issue because another poster raised the reset question on a Tanglewood quite recently - his needed a reset - and it's possible yours could, as well. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=499689

Best of luck working it out.

[BT55]

When life gives you lemons - make lemonade
Hindsight is 20/20.

I agree with the majority of the posted responses. There is a lesson to be learned here and most of us have made similar mistakes.

Without the guitar in our hands we are all guessing what the fix is but you have received some good recommendations. If you are good with your hands you can replace the bridge saddle for very little money. Go to YouTube and learn how to do it. In the end you may have higher action but you will probably eliminate the string buzz. Replacing the nut or fret leveling requires more knowledge and specialized tools.

I purchased a new Voyage-Air Dred. I electrified it, changed the bridge saddle and pins and tuners. My $500 guitar went to a $750 guitar. Could I recoup my cost, NO and I did the work myself. Was it smart to invest another 50% in the guitar, NO. The difference is that it is my guitar and is a keeper.

Get the guitar playable and enjoy it. Save your money and buy a good guitar when your situation allows.

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I experimented on my Recording King (0 size) to see if I could recreate your problem with a saddle reduction to get lower action. My original saddle's exposure (middle of saddle) measured 4.5mm, which is plenty. Action at the 12th fret bass E string was 2.30mm. Guitar sounded great with light strings (.12).

I changed the saddle for a lower one that allowed the 12th fret E action to be at 1.52mm (.78mm reduction due to saddle change). Because the neck on my guitar is slightly overset, the exposed saddle height was still more than acceptable (Martin's recommended saddle exposure range = >2.45mm - <4.80mm - my lowered saddle's exposed area was 3.17mm), despite the greatly reduced action. Kept the same strings.

Sound is subjectively interpreted, but the guitar sounded thin/nasal/quiet with the reduced saddle. The good quality sound was restored once I reinstalled the original saddle.

Your luthier lowered your saddle height to lower your action, and he may have gone further than healthy to get you the action you wanted (more likely, if your guitar needs a neck reset). How much of your saddle is exposed (max height above bridge, in middle of saddle)?

What causes this loss of sound from lowering the saddle/action? I'm not sure. It doesn't make sense to me that just having your strings closer to the fretboard (and, by a small margin) should affect the sound, so the obvious place to look is the amount of exposed saddle height, as the saddle transmits sonic energy into the guitar's interior. Too little saddle could make a difference, I suspect. Another variable to consider is the saddle string height above the sound board - should be about 12.7mm (1/2"). Saddle too low? Then maybe strings are too close to the soundboard? I don't know.

If that's true, then why did my RK sound bad when it still had plenty of exposed saddle and low action? I don't know.

Anyway, my suggestion is to take it back to the luthier and ask him (1) does my guitar's neck angle suggest the need for a reset? and (2) if the answer to (1) is "no," then please install a taller saddle (yes, more cost, likely $40-50 USD here) to establish 12th fret E string action at 2.30mm (6/64, .0905").

If the answer to question (1) is "yes," then he likely definitely had to over-reduce the saddle to get you your desired action, and it will be unlikely, pending a cost-prohibitive reset, that you will be able to have decent sound and low action. I raise the reset issue because another poster raised the reset question on a Tanglewood quite recently - his needed a reset - and it's possible yours could, as well. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=499689

Best of luck working it out.

Thank you Chris for going to such lengths to provide feedback and advice. I measured the saddle maximum height at the bridge and it is 3.5mm.

I also asked the luthier more about what he changed. He said he lowered the action at the nut. He said he lowered it more on the "treble side" of the saddle and kept it the same on the "bass side". He said he did this to give lower action playability and to "balance the sound between treble and bass".

Tanglewood had a famous Luthier design the series if guitars I am using. am wondering if he perhaps picked the cedar sound board a) because it is cheaper wood and b) knowing he would be using nubone nut and saddle.

For now I am going to keep playing the guitar. There is another one at the shop I bought this guitar so I could take my it down and compare the 2 to see if it really is a change for the worse (to my ear). I feel like I should have just got it set up well and then experimented with strings to improve the tone.

Thanks

[Limpias]

Your money is gone. No way to get it back. So why regretting about something you cannot change anymore? Look forward and take your dumped dollars to the „experience“ account. Change to a pair of stronger and especially quality strings (like Elixirs or something similar) and ge back to playing songs instead of complaining.
And: start to save some money for a real quality guitar!

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

Thank you Chris for going to such lengths to provide feedback and advice. I measured the saddle maximum height at the bridge and it is 3.5mm.

I also asked the luthier more about what he changed. He said he lowered the action at the nut. He said he lowered it more on the "treble side" of the saddle and kept it the same on the "bass side". He said he did this to give lower action playability and to "balance the sound between treble and bass".

Tanglewood had a famous Luthier design the series if guitars I am using. am wondering if he perhaps picked the cedar sound board a) because it is cheaper wood and b) knowing he would be using nubone nut and saddle.

For now I am going to keep playing the guitar. There is another one at the shop I bought this guitar so I could take my it down and compare the 2 to see if it really is a change for the worse (to my ear). I feel like I should have just got it set up well and then experimented with strings to improve the tone.

Thanks

Hi so - I did go to the shop and compare the new set up to the same model with original set up - and I do prefer the original by far- it has a warmer tone with a much bigger sound. It has a higher action and different strings (11s) so it may not all be attributable to the bone vs nubone. But all I needed was a set up rather than replacing the nut saddle and lowering the action. I'll talk to the luthier now

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by Limpias

Your money is gone. No way to get it back. So why regretting about something you cannot change anymore? Look forward and take your dumped dollars to the „experience“ account. Change to a pair of stronger and especially quality strings (like Elixirs or something similar) and ge back to playing songs instead of complaining.
And: start to save some money for a real quality guitar!

I am already using Elixirs

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

Hi so - I did go to the shop and compare the new set up to the same model with original set up - and I do prefer the original by far- it has a warmer tone with a much bigger sound. It has a higher action and different strings (11s) so it may not all be attributable to the bone vs nubone. But all I needed was a set up rather than replacing the nut saddle and lowering the action. I'll talk to the luthier now

A cedar top should have a nice warm tone. .11s are obviously lighter than .12s, so less tension, and less energy transmission, so should be quieter.

You have plenty of exposed saddle, so that's apparently not the problem. It sounds like your luthier lowered your saddle to reduce only the treble strings' action, so it doesn't seem even the action change is to blame, as he left the bass strings alone(?). I can't see a nut affecting sound, nor should fret-leveling have adversely affected sound.

Most swear by bone saddles, but I've heard others express concern that natural bone is inferior because it naturally contains density differences, relative to a manufactured product like nubone or another hard plastic designed for guitar nuts/saddles, that make for inconsistent sound. True? Or cork-sniffing first-world concern? Who knows.

In your place, my course would be to have the luthier cut a new saddle and restore the original overall action (bass and treble) - you can always lower it gradually once you've spent some time with a well-setup guitar. For now, I'd stay with the .12s, UNLESS your Tanglewood came with .11s as new - then I'd use those. That's the best I've got.