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  #16  
Old 03-24-2017, 02:18 PM
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Ed-in-Ohio Ed-in-Ohio is offline
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OP, if you do decide to go with an under saddle transducer pickup (UST) for the sake of ease and feedback resistance, I'd strongly recommend the DTar Wavelength. I've played through both the Matrix and the Element, and neither of them are remotely in the same league quality-wise as the Wavelength.

Also, in my opinion, coupling the Wavelength with the TC Electronics BodyRez (just $90) yields outstanding performance...about as good as you can get with an UST.
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2017, 07:35 AM
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As I read through this thread, it seems to me that there's really no definitive answer to OP's question. It all boils down to personal likes and dislikes. I have 3 guitars, 2 with the Fishman, one with the K&K. I'll soon be replacing the K&K with a Fishman. Purely on my perception of sound and performance. A feature I really like is the sound hole controls on the Fishman. Saves me running back to the amp between songs to make subtle adjustments. I've had no experience with the Baggs, and am happy enough with the Fishman to not consider it at all.
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  #18  
Old 03-25-2017, 09:33 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is online now
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Just to muddy the decision process a bit more, I think the Matrix UST is more fragile than the Element. Periodically someone posts a Matrix problem to the AGF that boils down to ripping the outer shielding foil on the Matrix UST. The Element is pretty bullet proof piezo coax that has been flattened.
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2017, 07:13 PM
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Anthem, no contest.
SL is a great buy for the money.


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  #20  
Old 03-30-2017, 05:42 PM
mjsb1 mjsb1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee1404 View Post
You won't get 'UST quack' from a K&K, primarily because it's not a UST.

The K&K is a great under-soundboard transducer (as distinct from an Under-Saddle-Transducer) which will benefit from the use of an impedance-matched external pre-amp. K&K have several models which, of course, are designed to perfectly match the output impedance of their pickup, but there are others which are just as good, possibly better - the Orchid Mutable DI and the Orchid Acoustic Pre-Amp being two. I've also heard of players using the Tonebone PZ-Pre and others.

The important thing to bear in mind when choosing a pre-amp for use with a K&K is that the output impedance of the pickup is 1 Megohm, and the input impedance of the pre-amp should be the same or very close. For this reason, and contrary to what someone said up-thread, the Baggs Para-DI (input impedance 10 Megohm - ten times too high for the K&K) is NOT a suitable pre-amp, and using it will result in bloated bass and bad tonal response.
Your comments about using the K&K with another pre-amp is actually something I was potentially going to start a thread about Jay! When faced with my pickup problem, I chose the Fishman Rare Earth Blend over the K&K system, just because the controls on the K&Ks pre seemed altogether so fiddly and not all that accessible on the fly...
Now, I'm back to square one, wanting to replace the Fishman, and the K&K is an option again.. I was considering matching it with an AER dual mix 2 (as I love the sound of my compact 60) as it has two separate line outs and a DI out, giving ample options as regards FOH and Monitor mixes. However the input impedance on these is 2.2 Megohm, would you say this figure is too high for the K&K system? Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) but does the K&K pre not have a 9v battery in it, to perhaps power the pickup? (it may be just for the pre though?)
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  #21  
Old 03-31-2017, 05:46 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmz76 View Post
Will just support that the Matrix sounds much better through the Aura. I found the Baggs Active Element tone unusable with the Aura Spectrum DI. All the built in images sounded too metallic but I also have an old Martin "thin line" UST that works great with the Aura, so I don't think you have to have a Matrix UST with it... There's just something different about the Baggs Element. Since all other UST rely on pressure and the Element does something different, I'm guessing that's what it is but I have a very small sample set so won't say that's definitive.
I've had the same experience with the Aura Spectrum in that it works much better with the Fishman pickup. That's because almost all of the stock sound images were created with Fishman Matrix-equipped guitars. If you had shipped your Element-equipped guitar in to have custom sound images made, your Element rig would work very well with the Aura Spectrum and those particular custom sound images. (Its interesting to note that James Taylor had custom sound images made for his Baggs LB6-equipped Olson.)

A sound image is a set of computer instructions which tells the Aura processor how to process the pickup signal, from a specific guitar/pickup rig, in order to make it similar to the signal which one would obtain from studio miking that guitar at the same time. When using stock sound images, its very helpful when the pickup in your guitar is as similar as possible to the pickup used in creating the stock sound image.

And of course, it also helps when your guitar is as similar as possible to the guitar used in creating the stock sound image. Its possible to sometimes get lucky with mixing and matching guitar body types, but I personally only got "lucky" with a Fishman pickup in the guitar.


What's so extraordinary about the soon-to-be-released ToneDexter processor is that it enables the user to create his/her own computer instructions (called WaveMaps with ToneDexter) for his/her own specific guitar/pickup rig. You simply plug both the pickup and a good mic (set up at a proper distance) into ToneDexter and play for a minute or two while the WaveMap is created. There's no sending your rig away to some company and paying $300 to get processor instructions which will work best with your specific guitar/pickup rig.
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  #22  
Old 03-31-2017, 06:50 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjsb1 View Post
Your comments about using the K&K with another pre-amp is actually something I was potentially going to start a thread about Jay! When faced with my pickup problem, I chose the Fishman Rare Earth Blend over the K&K system, just because the controls on the K&Ks pre seemed altogether so fiddly and not all that accessible on the fly...
Now, I'm back to square one, wanting to replace the Fishman, and the K&K is an option again.. I was considering matching it with an AER dual mix 2 (as I love the sound of my compact 60) as it has two separate line outs and a DI out, giving ample options as regards FOH and Monitor mixes. However the input impedance on these is 2.2 Megohm, would you say this figure is too high for the K&K system? Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) but does the K&K pre not have a 9v battery in it, to perhaps power the pickup? (it may be just for the pre though?)
I recommend just getting a Zoom A3 preamp to go with your Rare Earth pickup. Its a high learning curve device, but extremely functional with extensive EQ capabilities, mute/tuner, level boost function, very smooth gain and volume controls, automatic feedback zapper and optional guitar modeling which works well with mag pickups.

On the negative side, there have been some complaints about a high pitched noise when using a wall-wart power supply. That hasn't been an issue for me as I use four rechargeable AA batteries and appreciate the portability that affords. Also on the downside, there's no XLR out (only 1/4" jacks). That's been a non-issue as the signal out is impedance matched and I'm not running it over 30'.
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  #23  
Old 03-31-2017, 10:15 AM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
I've had the same experience with the Aura Spectrum in that it works much better with the Fishman pickup. That's because almost all of the stock sound images were created with Fishman Matrix-equipped guitars. If you had shipped your Element-equipped guitar in to have custom sound images made, your Element rig would work very well with the Aura Spectrum and those particular custom sound images. (Its interesting to note that James Taylor had custom sound images made for his Baggs LB6-equipped Olson.)

A sound image is a set of computer instructions which tells the Aura processor how to process the pickup signal, from a specific guitar/pickup rig, in order to make it similar to the signal which one would obtain from studio miking that guitar at the same time. When using stock sound images, its very helpful when the pickup in your guitar is as similar as possible to the pickup used in creating the stock sound image.

And of course, it also helps when your guitar is as similar as possible to the guitar used in creating the stock sound image. Its possible to sometimes get lucky with mixing and matching guitar body types, but I personally only got "lucky" with a Fishman pickup in the guitar.


What's so extraordinary about the soon-to-be-released ToneDexter processor is that it enables the user to create his/her own computer instructions (called WaveMaps with ToneDexter) for his/her own specific guitar/pickup rig. You simply plug both the pickup and a good mic (set up at a proper distance) into ToneDexter and play for a minute or two while the WaveMap is created. There's no sending your rig away to some company and paying $300 to get processor instructions which will work best with your specific guitar/pickup rig.
From what I've read, Fishman created images specifically for JT and he switched out the LB6s in his Olsons for the Matrix UST. However, he wasn't pleased with the Matrix and went back to the LB6 but still uses the Aura. It'd be interesting to know if they created the images using the Matrix or his LB6. Personally, I like the LB6 better than the Matrix (I seem to always be evangelizing the LB6...) but am curious how the LB series would work with the Aura (besides it apparently working for JT). Part of me would like to drop the dual source setup I have and just run a passive LB6 into something that models like the Aura or Mama Bear and just simplify my life. I have dreams of one days just plugging a single, passive, pickup directly into one preamp/DI and being happy with my sound.

*sigh*
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  #24  
Old 03-31-2017, 11:11 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrErikJ View Post
From what I've read, Fishman created images specifically for JT and he switched out the LB6s in his Olsons for the Matrix UST. However, he wasn't pleased with the Matrix and went back to the LB6 but still uses the Aura. It'd be interesting to know if they created the images using the Matrix or his LB6. Personally, I like the LB6 better than the Matrix (I seem to always be evangelizing the LB6...) but am curious how the LB series would work with the Aura (besides it apparently working for JT). Part of me would like to drop the dual source setup I have and just run a passive LB6 into something that models like the Aura or Mama Bear and just simplify my life. I have dreams of one days just plugging a single, passive, pickup directly into one preamp/DI and being happy with my sound.

*sigh*
I see we discussed it a bit here in 2012. I even mentioned my own experience with trying to use an LB6-equipped guitar with Aura.

http://acousticguitarforum.com/forum...d.php?t=269430


I'd say try ToneDexter (for that one preamp solution), except that James May has commented that ToneDexter doesn't work well with the Barbera Soloist, a pickup which (like the LB6) has the phase inverted on a couple of the six crystals. You could try the Graphtech Ghost hex pickup with ToneDexter. It has a thick, muscular tone which is similar to the LB6. It also has good string volume balance and string separation (like the LB6), but I don't believe any crystals are wired to be out of phase with the rest.
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  #25  
Old 03-31-2017, 11:11 AM
DavidE DavidE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrErikJ View Post
From what I've read, Fishman created images specifically for JT and he switched out the LB6s in his Olsons for the Matrix UST. However, he wasn't pleased with the Matrix and went back to the LB6 but still uses the Aura. It'd be interesting to know if they created the images using the Matrix or his LB6. Personally, I like the LB6 better than the Matrix (I seem to always be evangelizing the LB6...) but am curious how the LB series would work with the Aura (besides it apparently working for JT). Part of me would like to drop the dual source setup I have and just run a passive LB6 into something that models like the Aura or Mama Bear and just simplify my life. I have dreams of one days just plugging a single, passive, pickup directly into one preamp/DI and being happy with my sound.

*sigh*
I wouldn't think the usts are used in making the images. Just the guitar and microphones.
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  #26  
Old 03-31-2017, 11:25 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidE View Post
I wouldn't think the usts are used in making the images. Just the guitar and microphones.
The guitar is simultaneously recorded off the pickup and with a mic (or pair of mics), then they figure out what set of computer instructions (the Aura sound image) is needed to instruct the Aura preamp to process pickup signal A in such a way that it will imitate mic signal B.

They usually make a set of four or more sound images by using a variety of mics and miking schemes (close miking, distant miking, different types of mics, etc.) The sound images are described according to what mics and miking techniques were used, but each creation of a sound image involves recording the guitar's pickup signal, as well as the mic(s) signal.
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  #27  
Old 03-31-2017, 12:08 PM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
I see we discussed it a bit here in 2012. I even mentioned my own experience with trying to use an LB6-equipped guitar with Aura.

http://acousticguitarforum.com/forum...d.php?t=269430


I'd say try ToneDexter (for that one preamp solution), except that James May has commented that ToneDexter doesn't work well with the Barbera Soloist, a pickup which (like the LB6) has the phase inverted on a couple of the six crystals. You could try the Graphtech Ghost hex pickup with ToneDexter. It has a thick, muscular tone which is similar to the LB6. It also has good string volume balance and string separation (like the LB6), but I don't believe any crystals are wired to be out of phase with the rest.
Holy geez, how have I not heard of the Tonedexter before? It seems to be the Aura, in essence, but not proprietary to any particular pickup. I'm sure there some that don't work well, but this is definitely a good "invest up front" pay less in the long run kind of investment. The LB6 is $85 passive without install. This would afford me the opportunity to amplify more of my acoustics for less.

Well, now I found a toy I need. Thanks, guitaniac
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  #28  
Old 03-31-2017, 12:26 PM
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I have the Fishman Matrix Infinity installed in all my gigging guitars.

I think it delivers a very natural tone, that simply sounds like the guitar being played but louder and punchier.

I do play it through the Aura Spectrum DI for optimum tone, but even without it I still find it has a wonderful tone, with little piezo quack.

I also like a lot the options of givine you bass boost aned the tone / volume control inside the sound hole.

Its been a great pickup that has worked consistently well for me for years and Ive been complemented on the tone quite often.

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  #29  
Old 03-31-2017, 12:54 PM
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+1 for the Anthem SL. My Larrivee is the only one with this pickup in it and it is the best sounding of the lot when amplified. I can get the others to sound great as well but this involves some 'tweaking'. The Larrivee with the Anthem SL sounds fine run right to a powered speaker with no EQ.
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  #30  
Old 03-31-2017, 01:32 PM
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I own several Yairi's. I have the lr baggs ibeam in one, and a cheap fishman in another. Both have pros and cons. But the yairi's respond well to both. The fishman uts is responsive and articulate, while the lr baggs ibeam picks up more of the body. In a band situation I would favor the fishman for avoiding feedback and being a solid performer. Again, your guitar will work with either because of the way it's designed.

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