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  #1  
Old 05-04-2010, 08:45 PM
gerardo1000 gerardo1000 is offline
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Default Yamaha or La Patrie ?

I had the opportunity to play today the new Yamaha CG 192S spruce top and was quite impressed by the tone and playability. I do not have the opportunity to test a La Patrie guitar in the same price range ( around $ 500) and would like to have some opinions from forum member who have played both. If you have $ 500 to spend on a brand new classical guitar, would you invest it on a La Patrie or on a Yamaha ?
And, on which model ? Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 05-04-2010, 10:16 PM
GuitarVlog GuitarVlog is offline
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Haven't yet had a chance to play the new CG192S. These are still just being rolled out to retailers.

I had a La Patrie Presentation and felt it was a good guitar for the money with a stronger bass response than the Yamahas. My tonal preferences leaned however towards a Yamaha spruce-top CG171SF which, to me, had more clarity. I sold the Presentation and kept my Yamaha. This was a very fortunate decision as the CG171SF was discontinued and does not have a replacement in the new line-up of replacement guitars. It's getting extremely difficult to find a new CG171SF and all the major online retailers no longer have it in stock.

I remain impressed by the overall value of the Yamaha nylon-stringed instruments. Even their inexpensive all-laminate C40 is quite good (after I switched the saddle to bone and installed Savarez 540ARJ strings). I'm eager to try out a CG192S.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:09 AM
gerardo1000 gerardo1000 is offline
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Guitarvlog,
as far as you know, the solid top yamahas have bone saddles ?
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:03 AM
GuitarVlog GuitarVlog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerardo1000 View Post
Guitarvlog,
as far as you know, the solid top yamahas have bone saddles ?
None of the old CG line had bone saddles. They all used synthetic nuts and saddles. All the CG171S, CG171C and CG201S models that I played had synthetic saddles. I replaced my CG171SF's saddle with bone.

I think only the GC line (GC21, GC31 and GC41 which were made in Japan) had bone. You got those usually by special order.

I don't know about the new models from Yamaha.

LaPatrie standardized on Tusq. It's not bad but I still prefer bone. I replaced the saddle on my Presentation with bone too.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:00 AM
tennjed tennjed is offline
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I offer the following not to besmirch La Patrie, Yamaha, or any other guitar.

I currently own a La Patrie and have owned a solid top Yamaha classical guitar. Both are reliable instruments, as are all of the solid top Yamahas priced at about half, or less, of the amount you stipulate. In that group of guitars, it is my experience, that none stand out from the others tonally; some are brighter, some are darker.

Consider that either the La Patrie or the Yamaha will be worth about 40% of original purchase price, as will any of the the lower priced Yamaha solid tops. Now consider that you can buy a used Pavan (Ebay) with solid rosewood back and sides, solid cedar or spruce top, ebony fretboard, and hard case for approximately twice the amount you stipulate. Aside from the fact the Pavan will not lose value and can be sold at no loss in future, it represents an instrument that well above the Yamahas and La Patries in tonal quality.

I recommend you buy a used Yamaha or La Patrie, you might be stunned by how reasonably they are priced, and use the remainder of your money to start saving toward the Pavan.

I have been through this. I own a Pavan now and am now trying to sell the La Patrie Etude locally.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:20 AM
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Brent Hutto Brent Hutto is offline
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I'll sort of second the point made by tennjed. If you're going to go for an inexpensive guitar, either buy used or if that's not practical (and it often is not) buy a really entry-level Yamaha for a couple hundred bucks.

There are very, very small (in my opinion) increments of sound and playability on offer by spending two or three times the bare minimum on a beginner's factory guitar like a Yamaha or La Patrie. They are still quite heavily built (some of the Yamahas less so) and you're best off simply shopping for comfort, playability and good intonation. Those qualities can be found with a bit of patient shopping at half your target price, new. Even less if you happen to luck into a good deal used.

In other words, the first $250 or so can buy you a very playable, sweet-sounding nylon string guitar. The next $250 or so for step-up models of basically the same design and construction seem to buy very little. And there's an additional increment above that for most of the La Patries that I was able to find which frankly bought nothing at all relative to a Yamaha of similar type.

Really good sounding instruments (to my ears) even used start well above your target range. The point I'm trying to make is not to try and buy some of the difference between a $200-ish guitar and a $1,000+ guitar by spending halfway in bewteen. In my experience it does not work that way. You can, as suggested by tennjed find less mainstream brands occasionally available used at very attractive pricing that might meet your budget but walking into a store or buying mail-order from a mass-market retailer I believe $500 to be squarely in the middle of a Dead Zone. Spend half that much or twice that much as your taste and means allow but do seriously reconsider trying to buy just a little bit of extra value for a couple hundred extra dollars.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:18 AM
GuitarVlog GuitarVlog is offline
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Since the topic has made a segue into buying advice (as opposed to product comparison at a set price), I'll chime in with mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post
In other words, the first $250 or so can buy you a very playable, sweet-sounding nylon string guitar. The next $250 or so for step-up models of basically the same design and construction seem to buy very little.
This is generally accurate. If you understand the construction of factory instruments, you'll find that the material "enhancements" in the lines yield diminishing returns for your money. IMHO, the peak of the LaPatrie line is the $300 Etude. The peak of the old Yamaha line was the $300 CG171SF (well, it sold for that or less when I bought it about 18 months ago) since it had the European spruce top that could be found only on the CG171S and the CG201S.

If tone, volume and playability are the highest priorities, then your best options for an absolute budget of $500 would be:
  • A used all-solid Francisco Navarro Garcia student guitar (check eBay)
  • A used Kenny Hill Estudio (can be hard to find but check eBay)
  • A used Montalvo Classic Plus (hard to find outside of California)
The current Cordoba Iberia line which is made in China can be superior in tone and volume to old Yamaha CG line at their comparable price-points but I'm finding quality issues with these instruments and am therefore reluctant to recommend them without first playing them. For $500, I would wait for the C7 spruce-top to go on sale by 15-20% (July), pick a nice one, and spend the savings on a thorough set-up by a professional.

I've yet to learn if the new Yamaha line has made notable tonal improvements to match the Cordoba Iberia line. That will have to wait for a future discussion. What I do like about the Yamahas is their consistency in quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennjed View Post
Aside from the fact the Pavan will not lose value and can be sold at no loss in future, ...
I didn't find this to be the case 1-2 years ago when I shopped around for used Pavans. Mint units of the TP-20 and TP-30 generally went for 35% less than what Tom Prisloe was offering them for new.

In any case, I discovered that the tone qualities of the Pavans were not to my preferences; but that will always differ for each individual.
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:27 PM
gerardo1000 gerardo1000 is offline
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Thank you all for your advice. Actually, years ago I owned a couple of good and quite expensive classical guitars ( a Contrerars Studio, and a Rodriguez) and unfortunately I sold them. More recently, I switched to steel string guitars, and now I'd like to buy an additional guitar (nylon string) because sometimes I miss the sound of nylon, but I don't want to spend too much money because I know that I will not play that guitar too often.
However, I have some ear to spot a good classical guitar (at least I pretend to) and I was really surprised when I played the new Yamaha CG 192 solid spruce top. It is loud, sweet, and clear at the same time, and it costs less than $ 500.00. In the store, it was better than some Alvarez Yairy and Takamine that cost twice the price.
The two reasons why I did not buy it were: 1) I did not have the opportunity to play the La Patrie and compare them with the Yamaha. 2) the saddle of the Yamaha that I played is not 100 % vertical, but it is inclined at an angle towards the neck, I mean that if you look at the guitar from the side, you notice that the saddle leans forward.
It could be because the slot in the bridge has been cut that way, and it could be that a slight angle fprward of the saddle is part of the design of Yamaha, but I don't know because this was the only Yamaha classical in the store (perhaps some other Yamaha classical guitar owners can tell me if their saddles stand vertical or are slightly inclined forward ? ).
Regarding used guitars, I know that I am silly but I can't buy used acoustic guitars, I never did and knowing myself I am not the right guy to do it.
I know that in this way I probably lose some good occasion, but ...
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:32 PM
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Brent Hutto Brent Hutto is offline
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If I didn't buy my guitars used I fear my ear and my pocketbook would be forever incompatible. My classical guitar and especially my best steel-string guitar were darned near more than I could afford even though I bought them used at less than 50 cents on the dollar compared to their prices as new.

I think buying new actually offers you more selection as it is always very frustrating how few of the most desirable models show up used (and in excellent condition) when you happen to be looking.
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:59 PM
GuitarVlog GuitarVlog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerardo1000 View Post
I was really surprised when I played the new Yamaha CG 192 solid spruce top. It is loud, sweet, and clear at the same time, and it costs less than $ 500.00. In the store, it was better than some Alvarez Yairy and Takamine that cost twice the price.
The only in-production Takamines that are not acoustic-electrics and that would cost over $750 when new would be either the C132S or the Hirade H5 which are both made in Japan. The Hirade H5 is in the $1K+ league and hard to find at retail stores.

If it is your opinion that the CG192S sounded better than the C132S (all conditions being equal), then you do not even need to consider anything in the LaPatrie line. In general, the C132S has much better tonal qualities than anything LaPatrie puts out. I haven't yet encountered a LaPatrie that has changed that opinion.

EDIT: You can also skip my suggestion for the Cordoba C7 if the Yamaha CG192S played better than a Takamine C132S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerardo1000 View Post
2) the saddle of the Yamaha that I played is not 100 % vertical, but it is inclined at an angle towards the neck, I mean that if you look at the guitar from the side, you notice that the saddle leans forward.
The slots of all of mine (C40 and CG171SF) are perfectly vertical as are others that I have examined from friends and in retail stores. The original synthetic saddle of my CG171SF was a bit loose and did lean a little towards the nut. That was why I took it out and carved a snug-fitting, compensated and slightly-arched bone saddle.

I would go back to the store and examine it more closely.

You can get good deals buying used. You can also get good deals buying new if you know when to buy, where to buy, and are accustomed to bargaining. Both require patience though and you will succeed at neither if you are suffering from a GAS-attack.

Last edited by GuitarVlog; 05-05-2010 at 02:04 PM.
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