Will you really need to upgrade your electronics in the future?

[Goat Mick]

I prefer to add simple reliable electronics to my guitars rather than buy them with the electronics built in. To the general public an acoustic guitar with a UST is a very acceptable and pleasing amplified acoustic sound and that has been around since the 80's or longer. Now we all hate the quack so I moved over to K&K and JJB soundboard transducers and get a nice pleasing amplified tone. And honestly I can't tell if they have had any negative effect on my unamplified tone, but I know a lot of people will argue with me about. But if I can't hear it, then to me it doesn't exist. I think those pickups will be performing well enough to be a widely accepted amplified tone for at least the remaining of my performing life. I also like the Baggs M1 soundhole pickups and if their tone ever falls out of favor they're really easy to replace. So nope not going to be changing out pickups and chasing amplified tone with my guitars.

[smurph1]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

There are those that do. Willie Nelson has been playing with the same amp and electronics for his entire career.

Bingo. My system sounds great to me. It's the Gibson factory installed system. I think it's an LR Baggs "Lyric". It's probably not top of the line, but it sounds great to me. Having a good amp helps too!

[akafloyd]

I have the mind that things were made to be broken. As far as acoustic guitar electronics, I'm a fan of things being reversible and replaceable.

[Moocheng]

funny how the electric guys hold some of the vintage humbuckers in such high esteem

wonder if this will ever happen with acoustic p'up systems and lead to a whole cottage industry of people making their own version of what will then be vintage es2's and alike

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Moocheng

funny how the electric guys hold some of the vintage humbuckers in such high esteem



wonder if this will ever happen with acoustic p'up systems and lead to a whole cottage industry of people making their own version of what will then be vintage es2's and alike

What a funny/interesting thought. I think that happened with the Frap, for instance.


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[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I saw a discussion regarding an "upgrade path" for electronics on another thread, and it got me to thinking--"why not just keep what you've got?"

I know, I know--things are always changing, always getting better, etc., but if the electronics you've got now are "the most realistic acoustic sound ever" or "just like my guitar only louder" or some other form of hype, why don't you just keep it and not worry about it? (Barring damage/failure and lack of repair options/spare parts, that is).

Do you really need an upgrade path or can you just be satisfied with what you have? Probably a stupid question to ask on a guitar forum, but I'm curious.

That question is too broad, and what does electronics mean?

I have amps and microphones that are decades old, they are just fine.

On-board electronics that are not upgradable (probably one of my posts/comments) is different. There have been 3-4 Martin/Fishman upgrades in the past decade, I've owned them all.

The bitrate was increased and internal electronic processing improved with each generation (irrelevant to a passive pickup, which isn't "electronics"), and the difference was noticeable to me (my ears).

On-board "systems" like the Martins Auras and Taylor ES are a different story, both get upgraded every few years, and they wouldn't bother if there weren't audible improvements.

You aren't going to sell me a 10 year old Martin with 10 year old "electronics" when the current version is a lot better. Not talking about passive pickups, I have a Sunrise that's probably 8 years old, don't use/need it but it's fine. Old humbucks are highly desirable, they aren't "electronics".

My definition of electronics, at least how I use it, and my opinion..........

[M Hayden]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

What a funny/interesting thought. I think that happened with the Frap, for instance.

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I think it did - both Dazzo and Trance pickups reference the FRAP design, and not by chance, I think. I've got an old FRAP in a Bozo dread that sounds AMAZING, although it took forever to figure out which preamp worked with it, and what was needed. It didn't work well with a PADI, Headway, Rane, Fishman, or one or two other bespoke preamps. It did work reasonably well with a modified Tillman-design preamp where the input impedence was switchable - it worked well on the 1Mohm and 3Mohm settings.

Electronics can last a long time - if they don't fail in the first sixty days or so, quality solid state stuff lasts forever, and as long as they interface with current gear and sound good, no issues. This includes barn-door electronics, which are unsightly in some cases but very useful on the gig. The only real work I've had to do on those was replace the mic on a blender unit, and it was pretty painless - Fishman gave me the part number for the mini condenser and I swapped it out, and voila, good as new.

In terms of upgrade path, though, I think that pickups are really a lesser concern than the connector technology. The MI industry is still mostly using technology from the 1930s to connect our instruments and such, and there are real audio fidelity gains to be made there. The 1/4" phone jack doesn't really do a great job of carrying signal - Rick Turner, who knows what he's talking about, has talked about the coiled cords from the late sixties and early seventies which pruned off an octave or more of high-end response from the signal. Even modern cords have to be short with a lot of passive pickups in order to avoid signal degradation.

Manufacturers now make pickups that provide a really beautiful pristine audiophile-quality signal, but we're not taking advantage of more secure modern connectors to get that into the amp, because tradition is 1/4" cables where both the connector and the cable aren't as good as more modern designs.

XLR (as a physical connector, not the noise-cancellation technology it's most commonly applied to) doesn't do anything a stereo jack doesn't, but it's a better, more secure connector. DIN can offer a LOT of pins and digital-level signal quality. Amphenol or Molex both make connectors which offer more connections (for multisource pickups, the better to avoid multiple jacks on one instrument) and way better actual electrical connection (to increase audio fidelity). However, legacy systems basically mean that we're stuck with 1/4" jacks until manufacturers agree on a new standard, and I suspect that'll be a while.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I saw a discussion regarding an "upgrade path" for electronics on another thread, and it got me to thinking--"why not just keep what you've got?"

I know, I know--things are always changing, always getting better, etc., but if the electronics you've got now are "the most realistic acoustic sound ever" or "just like my guitar only louder" or some other form of hype, why don't you just keep it and not worry about it? (Barring damage/failure and lack of repair options/spare parts, that is).

Do you really need an upgrade path or can you just be satisfied with what you have? Probably a stupid question to ask on a guitar forum, but I'm curious.

I'm not one that necessarily buys into the "new, better, improved" mantra. For sure, improvements do appear in some products and it's equally true that some new products aren't better than older ones, albeit they may be different. Regardless, I'm reminded of the adage of 'Buy right...buy once. Buy cheap...buy again and again.'

When it comes to an acoustic guitar sound reinforcement signal chain, which contains many separate parts, some parts have truly improved in the past decade or two and there are certainly more choices, such as pickups. There is also more choice in feature sets. And costs have tended to come down, which is quite important for many folks. On the other hand, with minor exceptions, there has not been much sonic and behavioral improvements in speaker designs, power amp designs, preamp designs, eq designs unless you consider the development of digital solutions an improvement over analog solutions, which I don't.

My performance needs are quite basic...solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar. In most ways, it doesn't get any simpler than that. I chose a SBT/mic dual source into a rather expensive and high quality mini-PA. I made that choice almost 20 years ago. Since then, I have changed out some components for higher quality ones but the basic system is the same. I see no reason at all to change this system out for something else, "new and improved" as it might be claimed to be.

[Andy Howell]

I have a Fishman pickup in my Martin J40 which was installed when I bought it 30 years ago. I used it last autumn for the first time in years. It sounded great !


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[shredtrash]

2 Taylors with Expression Systems. I'm good.

[martingitdave]

I've had a few more weeks to play with the Aura Plus F1 system. It's realistic enough that I probably won't need to upgrade unless it breaks, or they come up with a new genre of system entirely. Given that it's connected to a very nice dreadnought, I'm feeling optimistic about the guitar in total.


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[alohachris]

Aloha Friends,

RE: Future Upgrades to your live signal change? It's inevitable because your increasing knowledge & experience will demand it - until you are satisfied, as I am.

As much as we are lured by marketers into the next "big thing" (or small thing in the digital world), especially when it comes to sound reinforcement gear, I agree completely with what sdelsoray said above (Howzit, Stephen). There really have NOT been many hugely positive, technical, design improvements in our gigging gear's technology that make huge qualitative improvements to our live sound.

"On the other hand, with minor exceptions, there has not been much sonic and behavioral improvements in speaker designs, power amp designs, preamp designs, eq designs unless you consider the development of digital solutions an improvement over analog solutions, which I don't." Well said, sdel.

It's more the choices we make in how we plan & put together all the complementary elements of our signal chain that truly makes all the true sonic difference to our gigging gear. And that's based on long-term knowledge & experience, not just buying the latest stuff.

Even mic & pickup designs have not really changed much in the past 50 years. And, no pickup will ever sound all that natural or great on its own without a mic & some excellent EQ (mine's a Pendulum SPS-1 preamp) in the mix, although some of the SBT's come close & are workable when used with a mic - depending on your style. I use K&K Mini/ AKG 416 internal mic combo's for gigging. And other sources when necessary depending on the venue & gig conditions.

That's why I have either made or put together my own dual-source P/U systems since the late 60's. And I used them in increasingly better signal chains as my knowledge grew over 53 years of gigging & experience with hundreds of house & my own rigs.

Because of that, I doubt that anything new could produce the quality of live sound & control results that I've enjoyed at my gigs for the last 15 years using my great live rig. I'm completely happy with it. That means I'm not susceptible to marketers & the new stuff (like modelers, Ha!). All modelers do is compress frequencies to the mid-range & negate natural acoustic sound & try to make cheap products sound workable. That's right, all it takes is a U87 program or plug-in, friends & you'll sound like a DeGrassi or Sinatra - Ha!

Like sdel, I'm also reminded of the old adage of 'Buy right...buy once. Buy cheap...buy again and again.' I think much of the dissatisfaction issues that AGF players seem to have with their live rigs could be solved if that mantra became a little more front & center in their choices. Ya simply can't amplify or record on the cheap & achieve what most are looking for & will stick with over a long period of time.

This is the key to what sdelsolray is telling us sagely, "My performance needs are quite basic...solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar (like many AGF gingers). In most ways, it doesn't get any simpler than that. I chose a SBT/mic dual source into a rather expensive and high quality mini-PA. I made that choice almost 20 years ago. Since then, I have changed out some components for higher quality ones but the basic system is the same. I see no reason at all to change this system out for something else, "new and improved" as it might be claimed to be."

Amen, Stephen! I took the same approach with my Pendulum/Daedaus live rig. But it took a long time & many rigs to get there.

Absolutely try everything new that comes down the pike. I still do, even though I've retired from regular gigging. Use your growing knowledge to put together your own "next big thing" live rigs & then keep planning & improving your signal chains, friends. Your knowledge & experience are much more important to your live sound quality than the gear, IMO. It will lead you to better gear combinations & choices in the long run.

All the Best & Good Luck!

alohachris

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by ChrisE

I saw a discussion regarding an "upgrade path" for electronics on another thread, and it got me to thinking--"why not just keep what you've got?"

I know, I know--things are always changing, always getting better, etc., but if the electronics you've got now are "the most realistic acoustic sound ever" or "just like my guitar only louder" or some other form of hype, why don't you just keep it and not worry about it? (Barring damage/failure and lack of repair options/spare parts, that is).

Do you really need an upgrade path or can you just be satisfied with what you have? Probably a stupid question to ask on a guitar forum, but I'm curious.

It's a reasonable, if somewhat unanswerable, question. There is of course always a schism between the (yin -yang ) of being content and the drive to improve things . Then also , given from a completely objective standpoint and (as blasphemous as it may sound on a guitar forum) a guitar is not something we "need" in the first place. So because it is an completely elective item in the first place and something we do not really "need" ---arbitrarily selecting a point of questioning or deciding "necessity" is fundamentally subjective at best , if not a bit specious in nature .

With that said: Since trying to achieve a totally acoustic tone with electronics is ultimately impossible. I am still using the type of electronics that came with my one guitar that has them. The two others I either mic or use a simple Duncan slip in sound hole pick up and try to focus on making my overall performance as compelling as possible, rather than making my tone as acoustic as possible

[StewRacing]

I would like to see all guitar makers produce cut-a-way guitars with out pickups installed. With the newer systems fully contained inside the body there is now need to have external controls. So I would say, if you want electronics have them all contained inside the body, so you never have to worry about replacing systems that required the body being cut.