Do jazz fusion guitarists like John McLaughlin actually have anything to say?

[jseth]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Exactly, just because you don't understand the language...

And if you think Bill Frisell sounds anything like McLaughlin, apparently you don't.

What a mean-spirited idea for a thread anyway.

How did this thread even continue? What is "nice" about the original post?

Glad you're going back to the Congo very soon...

[scuzbucket]

Originally Posted by jseth

How did this thread even continue? What is "nice" about the original post?

Glad you're going back to the Congo very soon...

Oh don't you worry.... I'm leaving the forum..... Again.

[jpd]

Originally Posted by scuzbucket

Oh don't you worry.... I'm leaving the forum..... Again.

...and again, and again, and again

[flaggerphil]

I will soon have a photo of me and Julio down by the school yard.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by Side Man

I believe the genre is called "Untreated Raw Newage"...

Into the Pitar Guitar lexicon with this says I.

[blue]

Originally Posted by flaggerphil

I will soon have a photo of me and Julio down by the school yard.

Let the Radical Preacher know beforehand in case things go sideways.

[Dr. Spivey]

If I had dismissed all the music in my life, which at first was difficult to grasp, there would be a huge empty hole.

[posternutbag]

Originally Posted by scuzbucket

There's no doubt the guy has immense technical ability, but surely no-one can honestly describe this vid as anything but messing about. If I heard a guy doing this in a guitar store I'd be silently begging for him to stop, or maybe at least play something with a melody or if he doesn't know anything like that, something that sounds pretty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdGYBI1fBhs

I think there is a legitimate question here to be discussed, but it has been obfuscated by hyperbole and vitriol.

I listened to the McLauglin piece at full speed. I think slowing down a piece and editing it to make it sound bad is pointless; if we are to ask if a piece of art moves us, it is at the very least incumbent upon us to meet that piece of art as the artist intended.

It is hard to say, what does this McLaughlin instrumental mean, in the same way we ask, "What does A Day in The Life mean?" It will always be more challenging to answer questions like this about instrumental music. What does Giant Steps mean? Is that even a valid question? Perhaps a better one is, "How does this piece of music make you feel?"

Apparently the McLaughlin piece make the OP feel frustrated and confused, because it is not random; it is not noodling. It has structure (even if the OP can't find it), and it has movement (even if the OP can't hear it). Is it a challenging piece? Yes, absolutely. Does it have a toe-tapping melody, no.

But there is this really great part around 4:20 to 4:45 or so when McLaughlin throws out a descending lick and then pedals over a 2 chord vamp to build harmonic tension before answering the initial lick with a short chord run based on the initial lick. Classic theme and variation. I could go on, pointing out parts I like and explaining why I like them, but somehow I think one example serves my point as well as 10 would.

[scuzbucket]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

Apparently the McLaughlin piece make the OP feel frustrated and confused, because it is not random; it is not noodling. It has structure (even if the OP can't find it), and it has movement (even if the OP can't hear it). Is it a challenging piece? Yes, absolutely. Does it have a toe-tapping melody, no.

Just came back to say: "if you say so".

Plane leaves tomorrow at 6am.

[blue]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

It is hard to say, what does this McLaughlin instrumental mean

Actually it's not. It's from one of the tours with Paco and Al. Three giants at the top of their game. Pushing each other every night. They were competing, and playing for each other with their solo. Kind of like Comedians trying to make the comedians in the back of the room laugh, not caring if they walk the audience.

I saw them twice. They had a ball each time. You could tell.

[Brucebubs]

Do jazz fusion guitarists like John McLaughlin actually have anything to say?

Yes but they like to use every word in the dictionary to say it.

[IndianaGeo]

I don't think the OP's post was necessarily mean spirited, but said from a rather sincere viewpoint. Not everyone "gets" jazz fusion. Then again some don't "get" country music..and some don't "get" rock and roll. I certainly don't "get" rap music (most of it sounds the same to me and I find it all ridiculously predictable and trite), but for some people it's deep and meaningful and involves a great degree of lyrical skill.

To use an analogy, I think to some extent jazz fusion sounds to some ears like what the Chinese language sounds to most English speakers (and probably vice versa). It all sort of blends together and the distinguishing features may be filtered out. But upon closer inspection and listening over time, one becomes more perceptive to the nuances, and in the case of the music side, to the skills, creativity, and character involved.

Yes, I think if one can acclimate themselves, one will find it quite easy to distinguish one jazz fusion artist from another based on their playing style much like we can distinguish, say, Stevie Ray Vaughan from Eddie Van Halen, or Jimmy Page from Eric Clapton.

IG

[rokdog49]

There are quite a large number of "styles" of guitar playing I don't care to listen to and the artists themselves are quite accomplished.
The fact is, it just goes to demonstrate what a versatile instrument the guitar can be. That in itself, fascinates me.

[Ruppster]

Originally Posted by scuzbucket

Hey guys, I'm back from the Congo visiting friends for a week.

For a few days only.

My question is this:

Do guitarists like John McLaughlin actually have anything to say?

I mean he plays the guitar pretty well I guess, as do all those other famous guys that play "jazz fusion".

But would it really matter if you just replaced him with Pat Metheny or cross-bred him in a lab with Alan Holdsworth and have his lab created son play instead of him on random jazz fusion recordings (like that awful Santana album "Welcome" for example)? Or simply have Frank Gambale, John Scofield or Bill Frisell step in on one of his sessions.

I mean they all play the same airy fairy, tuneless "jazz fusion" stuff without a hint of a memorable/hummable melody.

Would a blind person notice?

Wow, you mention several of my guitar heroes in your original post. I was a huge fusion fan in college (late 70's early 80's). Also listened to everything from James Taylor to the Who to Yes. While I struggled with some of the more difficult fusion pieces, the ones I could get my ears around moved me deeply.

Try listening to other works by these musicians and see if there's something you can hear. Lots of folks who loved Yes' "Close to the Edge" could not digest "Tales From Topographic Oceans."

As for Metheny, check out "What's it all About," a collection of his acoustic interpretation of some pop tunes. It is sparse, lyrical and understated.

On a similar note, John Mclaughlin's Belo Horizonte also has some very delicate playing.

[posternutbag]

Originally Posted by blue

Actually it's not. It's from one of the tours with Paco and Al. Three giants at the top of their game. Pushing each other every night. They were competing, and playing for each other with their solo. Kind of like Comedians trying to make the comedians in the back of the room laugh, not caring if they walk the audience.

I saw them twice. They had a ball each time. You could tell.

Really, of everything I said, that was the the line you wanted to quote?

The problem (other than sort of taking me out of context) is that, if what you say is true, then you are sort of undermining both my point and your own. If they were really "playing for each other" and not caring about the audience, then it kind of is what the OP describes, "technique for technique's sake." I am not saying that awe is not a valid emotion for a performer/artist to try to evoke, but there is something a little disingenuous about playing in front of an audience and not caring what they think. I hope you are speculating, and that this is not true.