Unbelievable... A microphone that's too good?

[TBman]

My idea of a good instrumental guitar recording is something that's focused on the guitar, minimal hand noise, no room noise, just the guitar. A few years ago my wife had bought me an Rodes NT-5 for Christmas. I also bought an AKG Perception 150 to have a pair of condensors for recording. Ever since then its not really gone well. My playing sounds fine when I'm playing (to me and my dog - I know because I asked, lol), but on play back of any recording its always been less then desirable. So tonight I'm practicing a song and recording it as I practice so I don't have red light phobia once I get the whole thing fairly memorized, under my fingers and pretty close to tempo (performance is 180, I can hit 160, but I don't practice at that speed for long because I can't do it error free through the whole thing.) So I'm playing, sounds ok and I play it back - complete junk. I did it several times, trying to be extra quiet as I play. Still junk.

So in a rare moment I call my wife into the music room to hear me play as I record it, thinking that maybe I finally went over the edge . I then played back the recording and asked my wife "Do I really make that much noise when I play". I was a happy and dumbfounded when she emphatically said "No, that doesn't sound like what you played at all. Too much noise going on that I didn't hear when you played."

So I sat and thought.

Let me try the AKG I thought. I stopped myself as I started to reach for the AKG as it's "noisy" also. I remembered I had my first mics that I ever bought a mXL 990/991 pair. So I get out the cheap microphone and do a recording. Here they are - first the Rodes, then below the MXL: - NOTE TURN UP YOUR VOLUME A LITTLE.

Rodes NT-5


MXL 991r:


It appears the Rodes is the wrong mic for my recording space which is in a corner, facing the walls and the computer. The microphone is about 18 inches from the lower bout. It's too sensitive. My recording area is untreated and has too many angles and reflective surfaces maybe. It isn't practical for me to record anywhere else unless I get a portable (Zoom) and print out the music I want to play (or maybe memorize it, lol) and record in another room.

The MXL is a much cheaper microphone and is not as sensitive and gives a better result to our ears. It still isn't a perfect recording but it seems to be miles ahead of where I was.

Do you agree with the results? This has been driving me nuts.

[j3ffr0]

IMO the Rodes sounds better. The MXL is too quite for me to hear much. Seems like you recording levels of both was really quiet, but the Rodes is louder. Tough to give a true comparison when they aren't level matched.

I put my #1 mic for recording about 12 inches from the 12th-14th fret... pointing right at it.

An untreated corner is probably the worst place to record. Maybe try a couple panels from GIK acoustics at least or a couple of different spots where you live.

I don't worry too much about noise I make picked up by the mic. You learn to get quieter the more you record, but there may always be a bit. It's fine.

Good luck and keep at it! Nice playing!

[JohnW63]

Barry,

I like the sound of the first recording better, but I do here more noises going on. My guess is that it's the type of mic and how it's sensitivity shape is. Cardioid, Super Cardioid, omni directional, etc. In a nut shell different patterns can pick up stuff happening in different places.

The Rode NT5 is Carioid , it will pick up from in front and to the sides.
http://www.rode.com/microphones/nt5

The MXL is also techically a Cardioid, but the patterns are different for each mic. Check out the specs:

Rode: http://www.rode.com/microphones/nt5 ( Looks like an upside down heart, hence the "Cardio" name of the pattern.

MXL: http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/900-series/990-991/
The 991 pattern is further down the page. It may be classified with Cardioid pattern, but it looks to be almost omnidirectional !

So, the difference must be in one of the other specs. Unfortunately, they seem to vary with HOW they are measured on the sensitivity scale.

[TBman]

Thanks guys. I'm going to fool around with this. I might try wrapping cloth around the Rodes to cut down on the sensitivity or maybe a little foam. It's definitely an inferior sounding recording as far as background noise (too much) goes on my end. I'm stuck where I am for now and panels aren't practical. I may go for a new computer/recording desk and get away from the corner later on down the road. This is a good thing as it will give me another spot to hang a new guitar,

I can up the input volume also and try putting the mic in a different location to see how that goes also - for the MXL.

I think the room has to much the mic and that's not going happen with my current configuration.

[Glennwillow]

Hi Barry,

Good condenser mics do a very good job of recording what is really there. If the Rode NT5 is recording hand noise, then it's really there.

I have a pair of Rode NT5 small condenser mics, and they are excellent. I also have a pair of large diaphragm condenser mics, Audio Technica model AT4050. One time some years ago a German foreign exchange student was at our house, and he wanted me to record him playing his violin. So we went out to our studio and recorded him. His bow made a huge amount of noise going over the strings on his violin, and of course the AT4050 mics set in omni mode picked up that noise. As our guest listened to the recording on playback, he decided that there was something seriously wrong with my two $700 mics because they were picking up all this bow noise. My son and his friend, both experienced musicians, responded, no, that's exactly what your playing sounded like. And that's what I said, as politely as I could.

No, he was sure he didn't sound like that. But he did.

I don't know why your mic is picking up so much hand noise, but I think our ears and brains tend to filter out stuff that we don't want to hear when listening live. Microphones don't have that ability. Some kind of sound treatment of your recording space may help, who knows. It's worth a try. You might also aim the NT5 mic differently so that it's not aimed so much at the neck.

I use two NT5 mics with omni capsules for my guitar recording, and I don't pick up any extraneous noise in my recordings. One of my NT5 mics tends to aim at about the 12th fret of a 6-string guitar. My NT5 mics are probably 8-10" away from the guitar since with omni capsules I don't have to be concerned with any proximity effect.

Best of luck with this issue.

- Glenn

[Neon Soul]

Rode still sounds better.

The problem is your mic placement technique.

The mic is picking up reflections from the walls it sounds like, and something is going on with the phase because of this.

Sit in the centre of a large room, place the Rode about 1 to 2 feet away and point it somewhere in the region of the 15th fret. That's your starting point.

[Alex6strings]

Originally Posted by Neon Soul

Rode still sounds better.

The problem is your mic placement technique.

The mic is picking up reflections from the walls it sounds like, and something is going on with the phase because of this.

Sit in the centre of a large room, place the Rode about 1 to 2 feet away and point it somewhere in the region of the 15th fret. That's your starting point.

I'm definitely no expert but I've been listening with good studio headphones and I agree with this.

[Mbroady]

The best mics will do you no good in a bad room. That coupled with bad mic placement is a formular for disaster.

1) stay away from corners
2) the worse the room the closer the mic should be (start a couple of inches away from the 12th fret)
3) try some moving blankets on the walls behind you and/or an SE reflection filter in front of the mic. Not optimal but better then nothing

[MikeBmusic]

Without even listening, I can tell this is bad mic placement (in the room) like others have already said. Foam or cloth on the mic won't help.
If you don't want to buy (or build) some good acoustic panels, face out into the room (longest dimension), and put a comforter or duvet behind you. And get the mic a little closer to your guitar - 9-12" so that its picking up more direct sound (louder) than any reflections.

[jim1960]

Some folks have said to move the mics closer, and that's probably something you should try, but keep in mind the closer you move the mics, the more proximity effect you'll hear in your recordings. So while 18 inches might be too far given your room as it is, I doubt you can get much closer than 12 inches without creating a brand new problem.

The more critical issue, imo, has been addressed: direction. You don't want to be pointing into the corner. Point yourself at the furthest wall.

Also, I think you might be pointing the mic a bit too far up the fretboard. Point the mic a bit more towards the sound hole. I'd try a spot to the soundhole side of where the fretboard meets the body. You might also bring the mic height up and point it down at that spot to minimize the noise from breathing or clothing movement in the chest and shoulder area.

In bad rooms, mic placement becomes critical. It would really help if you wore headphones and your wife held the mic and moved it around until you find the spot where it sounds best.

[TBman]

Thanks for all of the great advice. I'm going to give the suggestions a try. I'm determined to get cleaner recordings.

[islandguitar]

Hi Barry!
I concur on the Rode.....it's better......the MXL sounds thinner to me....yes, I've turned up the volume when listening.
I think this is some really good advise. The only thing i would add is that the cardiod instrument mics are super, super sensitive and catch EVERYTHING. The technique for recording is on a whole new plane and adds in another layer of lots of considerations due to the sensitivity of the mics right along with placement. Finger squeaks, the wire from your headphones just touching the guitar ( I have to tuck it away when I record), any breathing can really mess with the sound, a button on your shirt lightly hitting the back of your guitar and just little things your hands will do while playing can show up in what's captured. For me, this goes right down to the clothes I wear! I have a favorite fleece shirt I use which will produce less noise if I move slightly while playing!
And, yes, good headphones are great to use with this (I sprung for a nice pair and never looked back).....either to listen to while recording, or to get good feedback on a track you just played.
With my home recorded CD, the engineer noticed background noise despite all the details I tried to work out........and he applied his "de-noiser" software to the tracks to clean them up. I honestly couldn't hear it, but he did! And the tracks were cleaner for the effort, which I was of course glad for.
I'm still a newbie at this stuff..........but there are a few added thoughts for you.
Fred

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by TBman

Thanks for all of the great advice. I'm going to give the suggestions a try. I'm determined to get cleaner recordings.

# 1....Consider that you might want to be determined to make better recordings

#2 .....Consider that the way to make cleaner recordings is make your playing cleaner.

Trying to make the mic less sensitive or resorting to a mic with less dynamic response is counter productive to both # 1 and # 2
So the bad news is you are making all those extraneous noises . The good news is now you are aware of it and hopefully will start to listen more critically when you are just playing

There is probably no such thing as too good a mic
The mic is not capable adding sound that is not there. I know you realize this
So consider this :
The reason you are not hearing the noises is most likely because you are concentrating on playing.
The most likely reason your wife is not hearing the noises is because her ears are not 18 inches from the lower bout

The Rode"s sound is much much better. You need to listen critically for the tone and dynamics,, not critically of the performance > Go back and listen but force yourself ignore the extraneous noise and try to listen only to tone and dynamics.
Try moving the Rodes and pointing it at the neck body joint bring it into a 12" or so




Also just so you know a corner is probably the worst position to record or mix
in. Most likely you will continue to problems both recording and mixing.
At the very least get some longer mic cables so that even if your gear is in the corner you do not have to record there.

[SunnyDee]

I have really hard walls where I record. I place the mic a little below the guitar and closer to the bridge. I have put it around the 12th fret, but it's better near the bridge. Just a towel, nothing fancy, behind the mic on the wall the guitar soundhole is facing was enough to stop too much reverb. Then, I'd put the volume where I want it, but turn down the gain on the mic.

If there's really more string noise than you want, I'd consider a quieter string.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by KevWind

# 1....Consider that you might want to be determined to make better recordings

#2 .....Consider that the way to make cleaner recordings is make your playing cleaner.

Trying to make the mic less sensitive or resorting to a mic with less dynamic response is counter productive to both # 1 and # 2
So the bad news is you are making all those extraneous noises . The good news is now you are aware of it and hopefully will start to listen more critically when you are just playing

There is probably no such thing as too good a mic
The mic is not capable adding sound that is not there. I know you realize this
So consider this :
The reason you are not hearing the noises is most likely because you are concentrating on playing.
The most likely reason your wife is not hearing the noises is because her ears are not 18 inches from the lower bout

The Rode"s sound is much much better. You need to listen critically for the tone and dynamics,, not critically of the performance > Go back and listen but force yourself ignore the extraneous noise and try to listen only to tone and dynamics.
Try moving the Rodes and pointing it at the neck body joint bring it into a 12" or so




Also just so you know a corner is probably the worst position to record or mix
in. Most likely you will continue to problems both recording and mixing.
At the very least get some longer mic cables so that even if your gear is in the corner you do not have to record there.

Thank you!