Difficulties learning the right Beat or Rythm

[SprintBob]

A metronome should become your best friend, good advice from Tommy Emmanuel at a masterclass I attended last week in Baton Rouge.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by Looburst

Yep, what Amy said is the best I know of learning how to keep time. A gift for rhythm? Now that's not something that can be taught, you either have it or you don't.

To the other legitimate suggestions of clapping and using metronome:

Clapping along with a recording is inline with playing along with the recording. It allows your personal and internal clock to bond with the performer.

To my ears, the metronome lacks the ability to bring nuance in pushing or pulling the beat.


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[JonPR]

Metronomes are tricky beasts. On the one hand, they're (obviously) totally mechanical and rigid, and the tempo of a tune (unless pegged to a click track) naturally varies a little, organically.

On the other hand, our sense of time is not clockwork. It varies according to our mood, how relaxed or nervous we are. That's how it's evolved, so that "fight or flight" enables us to think faster when necessary, meaning our perception of real time slows down. (In traumatic experiences, we tend to feel everything moves in slow motion.)

To perform music, however, we can't allow nerves to affect our performance in that way. Stage fright (even the mild kind) would tend to make us play faster and faster.
We have to learn how to control tempo, to hold a steady tempo despite everything else that may be going on - including the different levels of attention we might pay at different points in the same tune, eg the difference between strumming a simple sequence, and improvising over it. Improvising requires faster thinking, a different brain gear - I know that, with me, it makes me rush the beat (I often feel as if the band is slowing down, when they aren't). And I know from playing with other people all the time how they can sometimes race at different points (more often than drag).

That's where a metronome is invaluable, in highlighting where our natural sense of time falters (without us being aware of it). We don't have to practice with one all the time (IMO), but it's good to test how well we can play to one, in many different styles and techniques, and at many different tempos. It will highlight the areas we need to work on - in particular where we need to relax, to feel the pulse and to play within it.

[zhunter]

I'm a metronome believer and my thoughts fall in the same line.

Another useful aspect of metronome practice is breaking out of tempo ruts. In my experience, I will pick up a guitar and practice parts and many times I'll default to a comfort zone tempo. Sometimes the parts are song parts, sometimes just finger twisters, but it is easy to fall in the tempo trap. Unfortunately songs don't always fit into my tempo comfort range of the moment. A metronome helps break the comfort tempo habit by allowing the player to monitor and adjust practice tempos. A well practiced fill or change that feels fine at 120 but belongs in a song at 140 will bite you when it counts.

And a metronome is a great way to build tempo versatility.

hunter

[gfa]

Practicing with a metronome is painful, but very helpful. Practicing with a drum machine/drum app is less painful and still very helpful.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by gfa

Practicing with a metronome is painful, but very helpful. Practicing with a drum machine/drum app is less painful and still very helpful.

Totally agree on this. A drum app or machine that can play you a 4/4 swing beat for example can make a tempo/rhythm workout fun and enjoyable. Great alternative to a metronome.

[mattbn73]

Metronomes are fine and all. They're really helpful for very specific things : keeping you honest regarding tempo , as a basic reference for specific tempos , and helping you diagnose problem spots with rushing/dragging etc. I use a metronome often in rehearsing with others as a reference, in my own practice when the occasion calls for it, and in teaching.

But honestly, I don't think any of that touches on the op question, as I understood it. There's a huge difference between learning to strum a BEAT and learning to strum a RHYTHM. I didn't get the feeling that he's having problem with basically strumming the beat.

The problem is I heard being addressed or hinted at are the same ones which are common to most beginning guitarists.

Things like:

How do you learn to hear and reverse-engineer basic countable BEAT patterns from more complex recorded RHYTHMIC patterns?

How do you learn to develop - on your own - more interesting RHYTHMIC patterns using only basic meter (beat) starting points.

How do you develop ways of extrapolating broader rhythmic feels for a song other than just playing exactly what the original guitarist played on the recording? How do you simplify more complex patterns into a more basic groove? How do you rhythmically interpret a strum pattern for a single guitarist based on something which was originally played by an entire band?

Most of these kind of things are answered by opposite sides of the same coin really: learning to count the basic beat and meter of complex, rhythmic music and at the same time.... learning to develop rhythmic patterns over basic meter/beat.

In my opinion, the best way to really learn this stuff is by learning the broader patterns–the polyrhythmic accent patterns common to most modern music. They teach you to hear the underlying meter in complex rhythms and to mentally simplify strum patterns beyond just playing literally every single nuance of the original. I've seen kids develop about a "three-year sound" in a few months of working on the stuff in a more deliberate way. It is the shortcut.
For example, Mr. Bojangles has a 6/8 polyrhythmic accent pattern which underpins the whole thing. This base rhythm is probably best learned first and, long-term, will get you feeling the whole thing better and more quickly anyway. The thing is, this broader kind of lessons are then applicable to EVERYTHING, not just one tune.

Anyways, sorry to be long. I'm happy to explain whatever, but maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. It's just that, in my mind, that's the real conversation probably.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

In my opinion, the best way to really learn this stuff is by learning the broader patterns–the polyrhythmic accent patterns common to most modern music. They teach you to hear the underlying meter in complex rhythms and to mentally simplify strum patterns beyond just playing literally every single nuance of the original. I've seen kids develop about a "three-year sound" in a few months of working on the stuff in a more deliberate way. It is the shortcut.
For example, Mr. Bojangles has a 6/8 polyrhythmic accent pattern which underpins the whole thing. This base rhythm is probably best learned first and, long-term, will get you feeling the whole thing better and more quickly anyway. The thing is, this broader kind of lessons are then applicable to EVERYTHING, not just one tune.

Anyways, sorry to be long. I'm happy to explain whatever, but maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. It's just that, in my mind, that's the real conversation probably.

No, no, it was great, please do go on! What are these and where do we learn them? "the broader patterns–the polyrhythmic accent patterns common to most modern music"

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

No, no, it was great, please do go on! What are these and where do we learn them? "the broader patterns–the polyrhythmic accent patterns common to most modern music"

I don't know where you get them , online or wherever. I'm sure somebody's got similar, and it would be cool to be able to point people to that. I developed my own stuff many years ago, when I got tired of teaching individual strum patterns for each specific song. They are definitely worth learning, but they don't necessarily teach you to apply grooves to every OTHER song as well , unless you make the bigger connections.

The really basic and easy to hear example is always a 3+3+2 pattern over 4/4. Those are your groups of 8th notes in 4/4 with the 1 of each grouping being accented. So, 3+3+2 is:

loud-soft-soft, loud-soft-soft, loud-soft

As a reference pattern. for the actual accent pattern itself is more like dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter, but really, eighth notes are the common denominator, and anyone can count the common denominator, because it's constant.

Anyway, most true beginners have trouble with accents generally. There's more to it than just strumming something louder softer. Generally, real players accent things by playing different strings or different numbers of strings etc. It's a subtle thing hard to pick up on at first. I generally would get beginners strumming all strings of the chord for the accent (loud) and ONE or TWO strings for the unaccented (soft) - sometimes just the bass note of the chord. Not the way you'd necessarily play it in a real tune, but it gets you hearing the basic pattern easily.

So, something like ALL-bass-bass ALL-bass-bass ALL-bass.

You work that kind of thing until you can play without thinking about it, and then you NEVER think about it again, like EVER. Then, you learn the individual patterns and songs a lot faster . Hundreds of tunes in all styles use that basic pattern, from freefalling to Stand By Me etc. anyway, they're pretty easy to play and improvise your own rhythmic patterns when you have the underlying ground rhythm ingrained.

Most of us honestly don't remember how we learned such things, when we've been playing for a while. But when you teach and see all of the roadblocks and hurdles, you become aware of them more.

Anyway, that's just basic stuff. You can generally pick those kind of things up in a week. The ones that take more time are the 16th note patterns, but once you learn those and put in the work, you can literally play almost ANYTHING you'll ever run into in four.

Triple meters are generally a good bit harder for most people - even than those 16th patterns in four, especially something like Mr. Bojangles, which additionally swings.

[mattbn73]

So, Mr. Bojangles is in 3. In traditional folk music or whatever, 3/4 has an accent on beat 1, with a secondary accent on 3. Subdivide further to eighth notes, and you have 1-&-2-&-3-&, with all of the numbered beats basically being more accented than the and of the beat.

But Bojangles has a more modern 2-against-3 or 6-against-3 type feel, with accents on 1 in the and of 2. It's particularly hard to hear in this tune because of the tempo and the fact that it swings, unless you know the broader pattern already.

Anyway, too many words. You don't have to understand any of this on some intellectual level , you learn to play simplified versions of the patterns to learn to HEAR them/feel them at a gut level, and then you can just hear and apply them to anything without thought.

We could do some examples on this tune if there's interest. Again, I think the applications are then applicable to hundreds of tunes.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

Metronomes are fine and all. They're really helpful for very specific things : keeping you honest regarding tempo , as a basic reference for specific tempos , and helping you diagnose problem spots with rushing/dragging etc. I use a metronome often in rehearsing with others as a reference, in my own practice when the occasion calls for it, and in teaching.

But honestly, I don't think any of that touches on the op question, as I understood it. There's a huge difference between learning to strum a BEAT and learning to strum a RHYTHM. I didn't get the feeling that he's having problem with basically strumming the beat.

The problem is I heard being addressed or hinted at are the same ones which are common to most beginning guitarists.

Things like:

How do you learn to hear and reverse-engineer basic countable BEAT patterns from more complex recorded RHYTHMIC patterns?

How do you learn to develop - on your own - more interesting RHYTHMIC patterns using only basic meter (beat) starting points.

How do you develop ways of extrapolating broader rhythmic feels for a song other than just playing exactly what the original guitarist played on the recording? How do you simplify more complex patterns into a more basic groove? How do you rhythmically interpret a strum pattern for a single guitarist based on something which was originally played by an entire band?

Most of these kind of things are answered by opposite sides of the same coin really: learning to count the basic beat and meter of complex, rhythmic music and at the same time.... learning to develop rhythmic patterns over basic meter/beat.

In my opinion, the best way to really learn this stuff is by learning the broader patterns–the polyrhythmic accent patterns common to most modern music. They teach you to hear the underlying meter in complex rhythms and to mentally simplify strum patterns beyond just playing literally every single nuance of the original. I've seen kids develop about a "three-year sound" in a few months of working on the stuff in a more deliberate way. It is the shortcut.
For example, Mr. Bojangles has a 6/8 polyrhythmic accent pattern which underpins the whole thing. This base rhythm is probably best learned first and, long-term, will get you feeling the whole thing better and more quickly anyway. The thing is, this broader kind of lessons are then applicable to EVERYTHING, not just one tune.

Anyways, sorry to be long. I'm happy to explain whatever, but maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. It's just that, in my mind, that's the real conversation probably.

I enjoyed reading what you wrote, thanks!

For me, it boils down to:
Beat = metronome
Rhythm = the thing that makes your blood pulse

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

So, Mr. Bojangles is in 3. In traditional folk music or whatever, 3/4 has an accent on beat 1, with a secondary accent on 3. Subdivide further to eighth notes, and you have 1-&-2-&-3-&, with all of the numbered beats basically being more accented than the and of the beat.

But Bojangles has a more modern 2-against-3 or 6-against-3 type feel, with accents on 1 in the and of 2. It's particularly hard to hear in this tune because of the tempo and the fact that it swings, unless you know the broader pattern already.

Anyway, too many words. ...

We could do some examples on this tune if there's interest. Again, I think the applications are then applicable to hundreds of tunes.

I'm not afraid of words.

Question, though.
If I understand, you are saying it's
1&2&3&
A&2A3&
with A(accents) on 1 and the & of 2?

So, never mind whatever the score says, but what's stopping us from just counting 123, 123. A23A23?

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I'm not afraid of words.

Question, though.
If I understand, you are saying it's
1&2&3&
A&2A3&
with A(accents) on 1 and the & of 2?

yeah. That's it. It's a very subtle thing. You don't hammer away at it. But it's there throughout the even if it's not really explicit in the opening bars.

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

So, never mind whatever the score says, but what's stopping us from just counting 123, 123. A23A23?

Nothing really. I mean we play and think whatever we want. The truth is that many of us who've played for a good amount of time are going to be thinking basic three while playing that accent pattern subconsciously.

None of these things are that important really until you're working with a teenage drummer and time is short, or unless someone asks the question specifically, like in this thread, about how you learn these things, aside from just playing FOREVER.

If you play long enough , you generally pick these things up. For some, it's faster, and for others it takes longer. Honestly, there are people who NEVER get it, and who might benefit from some kind of mechanical breakdown.

I'll see if I can post a short video.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

yeah. That's it. It's a very subtle thing. You don't hammer away at it. But it's there throughout the even if it's not really explicit in the opening bars.
Nothing really. I mean we play and think whatever we want. The truth is that many of us who've played for a good amount of time are going to be thinking basic three while playing that accent pattern subconsciously.

None of these things are that important really until you're working with a teenage drummer and time is short, or unless someone asks the question specifically, like in this thread, about how you learn these things, aside from just playing FOREVER.

If you play long enough , you generally pick these things up. For some, it's faster, and for others it takes longer. Honestly, there are people who NEVER get it, and who might benefit from some kind of mechanical breakdown.

I'll see if I can post a short video.

I suspect if you were just playing it without vocals and other instruments, 123, 123 would work ok, wouldn't it? Isn't it the phrasing that makes a piece 3/4, rather than 6/8? In fact, I see sheet music for Bojangles in both 3/4 and 6/8. It seems it's a matter of interpretation much of the time, like with traditional Irish melodies, you'll find the same tune described in different time signatures, or even described as a jig or a reel or a variation of one of those.

As far as beginner guitarists, I wonder if a student who is having trouble, but who is trying to use a pick, would do better with fingers. Personally, my rhythm is far more intricate with fingers.

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I suspect if you were just playing it without vocals and other instruments, 123, 123 would work ok, wouldn't it? Isn't it the phrasing that makes a piece 3/4, rather than 6/8?

The difference between a syncopated 3/4 and 6/8 is a subtle thing, but there's a difference. Probably much to do with what you leave out etc. Anyway, ramblings:

https://youtu.be/TIROCIGF1Kw