On guitar shredding ...

[jaybones]

Well, Mozart and Bach and all that was the heavy metal of its day. Younger audience, flying in the face of conventional music, playing all those notes crammed together.

And then there are classical guitarists. Sergovia's Layenda played cleanly on a classical is great, but played the same way on an electric (insert name brand with pointy headstock Floyd Rose and humbuckers, black of course) with a distorted amp will melt the face off those pimple pickers at GC shredding the latest dreck from Avenged Sevenfold, Metallica (I like the older stuff, pre And Justice for All) or Robb Zombie.

Incidentally, Layenda was lifted pretty much note for note by Robbie Krieger of the Doors for Spanish Caravan.

[JeffreyAK]

Yep, they're different enough to be hard to compare. I think it's easier to be expressive on electric, because of the sustain, generally lower action, and generally thinner strings. But that just raises the bar for being an awesome shredder, because being able make more different sounds means the discerning listener will be listening for those different sounds. How exactly you hold your pick, whether or not your fingers ever touch the strings and how, palm muting, pinch harmonics, hammers and pulls, how hard you pick, where you play on the neck (thick strings up the neck or thin strings by the nut), never mind all the amplification and pedal variables. I think it's harder to play fast bluegrass on acoustic (for sure it's harder for me, a former hair metal shredder), but to my ears it's mostly about speed and there isn't much subtlety involved. Plenty of counterexamples in both cases (fast but boring metal shredders, expressive bluegrass pickers), but that's my take.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by psychojohn

shreaders... shreading

What exactly is that?

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Moocheng

the term shredding always makes me smile.

this guy can play a little, don't think he calls it shredding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gphiFVVtUI

It's shredding my ear drums all right. All he does is play basic aeolian and phrygian licks in A and E, drenched in reverb and delay. It's terrible, terrible music.

Why does everything always have to be either / or?

Shredding but no musicality?

Musicality but no shredding?

That's such a simplistic view of things.

Do you ever look at food and say it can either be spicy or nutritious, but not both? Or presented nicely on a plate or tasty, but not both?

No. Because it's absurd.

If given a choice between a Guitar Center shredder and the average cowboy chord player who drops half a beat in every bar, I'll take the shredder any day, because s/he at least put in the practice time.

But given a realistic choice, I'll take neither, because there are SO many great musicians who play good music with great chops. In every genre.

I'll never understand why people on music forums feel the need to bash technically accomplished players with the excuse that their favorite non-technical players have "more feeling" or whatever. What if I told you it's possible to admire a player without pooping all over another?

And who cares about who came first? There's guys like Andy Wood, John Jorgenson, Jerry Donahue and Will Ray and Steve Morse who can play bluegrass and rock and even metal.

[Monsoon1]

it's odd that you mention Satriani, since he's one of the most melodic shredders in the world.

[Mandobart]

To me Eric Johnson is the premier example of melodic electric guitar shredding. When I first heard "Cliffs of Dover" on the radio I pulled my car over so I could just listen.

I love bluegrass, play mostly fiddle and mandolin. Chris Thile is probably the world's best mando picker. He's a great guy, great performer, full of talent. But when I've seen him live he (to me) crosses the line into rapid fire noise. He even has a song aptly called "Too Many Notes".

I think the great Gypsy Jazz pickers (D'jango, Oscar Aleman, Stochelo, etc.) are closer to and bigger influences of metal shredders than the great bluegrass flatpickers.

[Monsoon1]

shredding and great melody all at the same time

[Mr. Scott]

Some of you may be familiar with the live album "Friday Night in San Francisco" which features John McLaughlin, Paco DeLucia and Al DiMeola all playing acoustic guitars. It is a shredfest of the worst kind with the aufience encouraging the players to play ever faster, the result being as un-musical as any electric shred concert. It just goes to show that audiences tend to be impressed more by technique, especially speed, than musicianship. If you haven't heard it, borrow a copy (it's a 1981 recording) and you'll see, or rather hear, what I mean.

[rokdog49]

I appreciate the skill it takes to be a melodic shredder no matter on what stringed instrument it is done...but, I don't care to listen to it.
As far as the kids doing it goes, my attitude has always been that someday some of them might turn into real guitar players.

[Mr. Jelly]

[QUOTE=psychojohn;5383589] I realized his pickin was really shreading, but he was doing it in a melodic fashion to produce a tune !!!! May not seem like much of a revelation to many familiar to with blue grass, but it made me wonder:
/QUOTE]

I agree and it's a musical point really. If one were to describe each using classical musical language I believe it would be similar. As a slow flat picker that strives to play good melodic guitar I can be put off by shredding in any style of music. I was just revisiting an old Norman Blake CD and though I love his music and taste I thought to myself "slow down". There are flat pickers that are just as guilty of mindless shredding as metal heads. Not Norman though :-)

[crikey]

I've come to hate the term 'shredder' and I'm sure I've been guilty of abusing it myself. I'm almost skittish at posting in another shredder thread. But "here I go again" anyway.

(Disclaimer: NOT accusing the OP psychojohn of this! I just think it's a word that crept into a lot of musician's musical dictionary for lazy short-cutting of conversation as a premise to pigeonhole certain musicians without clarification, and it's used/abused far too ofen in the guitar playing 'community'.)

To John's points:

1. Not sure of the true roots of metal shredding, but in my little world the 'shredding' term came about electrically in the "weedly weedly" guitar era of the late '70s/early '80s. Van Halen, Def Leopard, et al.

2. For me there is no "better" (skilled/smooth/technical) between any genres; only those who appeal to my musical sensitivities. I have come to love listening to good acoustic flatpicking although I play very little of the style. I also enjoy listening to good electric playing at any speed as long as it takes me somewhere with musical clarity; has a beginning, middle and an end; a journey my little pea-brain can follow. I also play very little electric these days. Still, I listen.

Look at Chet Atkins...Jerry Reed...Roy Clark. Many others. Hmm, they all played acoustic and electric, sometimes at blazing speeds. All were completely musically clarifying and satisfying to my ears. Rog mentioned Steve Morse. Glad he did. Saw Morse in Frankfurt recently and he can and will make some people re-evaluate the term 'shredder'. Heads may explode.

3. I guess it depends. Action on electric is so much easier. But to be musically good on any instrument you still have to spin around three times, stand on one foot, and make a compelling guitar face.

[psychojohn]

Wow ! Great discussion, information an opinions !! Thanks to all. Special thanks to posternutbug (among others) for the pickers perspective, history etc.

The only thing I shread is cabbage for coleslaw and lettuce for tacos, so I won't get into defintions and splitting hairs there of. My post was really just based on my perceived connection between metal shreading and blue grass flat picking that came to me at the festival this past weekend. After reading posts by those more informed and experienced than I, that connection may not be as direct as I thought, but the cross influence or fertilization still seems present to me.

Thanks for all the great information !

peace

John

[Jambi]

[s2y]

I can't believe the insane speeds. He needs to play less notes and with more feeling.

[roylor4]

Flatpicking on an acoustic and playing fast leads (ie - shredding) are two totally different skill sets.

Someone can be a virtuoso on an acoustic and just so-so on an electric and vice-versa.

I play both but started with acoustic about 5.5 years ago. Some acoustic skills translate directly to an electric but many do not. Just two totally different animals IMO. On an electric I tend to use almost all barre and power chords, with acoustic - Cowboy chords mixed with diads and triads.

I find electrics to be more unforgiving in most respects. Mute a couple of strings or play extra strings on an acoustic and it's noticeable but not a glaring error sonically. Do that with an electric and it REALLY stands out.

I suspect that someone that was raised playing electric would have just as many problems when first starting out with an acoustic, and again, vice-versa. Different problems, but just as many.

As for playing fast (shredding) on an electric to just do it, uggh - no thanks.

Give me something fast and tasteful like Bryan Sutton or slow and tasteful like BB King. Electric shredding hurts my head.