Chasing harmonies

[Northward]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Google "how to write a chorus". Resources should last you a while. Learn the craft element. Like painters learn to mix colors. The art may come.

hunter

You sound like an expert. Would you like to share your art?

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Northward

You sound like an expert. Would you like to share your art?

Google "how to write a chorus". Really. You will find things that will help you. It isn't about me.

hunter

[Northward]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Google "how to write a chorus". Really. You will find things that will help you. It isn't about me.

hunter

Yeah, Google can be fantastic for such.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Northward

One question.

When you write - X goes to Z etc, am I to just take this as a common known fact that they work well together, without trying to make an optical sense of this on the wheel itself?

Well, the idea of the "dominant" (V chord) is that it's the chord that is supposed (ever since classical "common practice") to lead to the "tonic" (I chord).

Your ear will tell you this. Try playing G-C-D, and stopping on the D. Doesn't sound finished, right? You have to play G again to tie it up, to put the period on the sentence.
You probably notice the same effect if you just play G-D7. The D7 just "hangs" - you need to go back to G to "resolve" the tension in the D7.

Even if you just strum a D chord for a while, then change it to D7, you know (and every non-musician listening knows) what has to happen next: G. If you don't follow D7 with G - if you go back to D, or play some other chord, the ear goes "huh?"

That's how accustomed you (we) are to the key system.

Naturally the "huh?" effect is what you want sometimes, but it's about recognising those sounds, and being able to control them.

(NB: blues is different - it uses 7th chords "non-functionally". I'm talking "functional" harmony, as used in jazz and lots of pop/rock/etc as well as classical.)

Every key has it own primary dominant chord, the "V", the chord built on the 5th degree. It resolves to the tonic (I) by a "leading tone". I.e., when you play G-C-D-G, it's the F# in the D chord that leads up to G in the G chord. (The "ti" of the do re mi fa so la ti do.)
Even if you were in the key of G minor, you'd use D major to give you the F#-G leading effect.
The other important move is the root movement: D to G, which is a 5th down or a 4th up.
The 7th adds an additional effect (the C in D7 goes down to the B in G), which is why dom7 chords are so popular.

Check that D7-G move again: look at (and listen to!) the top 2 strings:
-2->-3--------------
-1->-0--------------
-2---0--------------
-0---0--------------
----(2)-------------
-----3-------------

The tension is in the top 2 strings (C-F# make a dissonant"tritone") - and is resolved by one moving up and the other down. (The G string also goes down, but by whole-step, which is a weaker "tendency".)
Meanwhile the D root moves down to the G root on 6th (the (2) on 5th string is superfluous).

"Secondary dominants" are where you use this effect to lead to the roots of other chords in the key. So you can use D7 to lead to G, whatever key the G is in: keys of C and D as well as G.
Or, in key of G, you might use A or A7 instead of Am, to lead to D.

Not all "V7-I" moves work on guitar quite the same way, because the shapes are different; but they all imply the same moves. Try A7-D, E7-A, G7-C, B7-E - look for the half-step moves in particular.

Originally Posted by Northward

The neighbouring quarter of tones looks 'logical' and these others are more "rules" that you can't read from the formula?

One rule you can't read from the circle is: "voice-leading".

That's essentially what I've described above with the "leading tones". If ANY two chords share at least one note, while one or more other notes can be made to move by half-step, then the change will work - regardless of whether the chords are in the same key.

Imagine the guitar strings as a 6-piece choir. It's a very lazy choir. As the chords change, each voice (string) would really like to stay on the same note, and if it can't do that it would like to move by half-step, up or down. It will accept a whole step move if it absolutely has to, but no further please!

Luckily, the way we usually play guitar is with different shapes in the same position, so voice-leading normally takes care of itself. But the "lazy choir" rule means we can alter chords (change single notes), or insert transition chords, in order to get those half-step moves when the in-key chords don't provide them. Jazz does this kind of thing all the time, flattening 5ths, 7ths or 9ths, raising 3rds or 5ths, etc. (Bass lines, btw, can jump up and down quite happily. The bassman in the choir is not as lazy as the others, although he does quite enjoy scalewise descents. )

This is why songwriters who know no theory can often write quite complicated sequences, because their ears know (and trust) the "lazy choir" rule. They either don't know or don't care that they're using chords outside the key - and in any case there is no rule against that.

[Northward]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Well, the idea of the "dominant" (V chord) is that it's the chord that is supposed (ever since classical "common practice") to lead to the "tonic" (I chord).

Your ear will tell you this. Try playing G-C-D, and stopping on the D. Doesn't sound finished, right? You have to play G again to tie it up, to put the period on the sentence.
You probably notice the same effect if you just play G-D7. The D7 just "hangs" - you need to go back to G to "resolve" the tension in the D7.

Even if you just strum a D chord for a while, then change it to D7, you know (and every non-musician listening knows) what has to happen next: G. If you don't follow D7 with G - if you go back to D, or play some other chord, the ear goes "huh?"

That's how accustomed you (we) are to the key system.

Naturally the "huh?" effect is what you want sometimes, but it's about recognising those sounds, and being able to control them.

(NB: blues is different - it uses 7th chords "non-functionally". I'm talking "functional" harmony, as used in jazz and lots of pop/rock/etc as well as classical.)

Every key has it own primary dominant chord, the "V", the chord built on the 5th degree. It resolves to the tonic (I) by a "leading tone". I.e., when you play G-C-D-G, it's the F# in the D chord that leads up to G in the G chord. (The "ti" of the do re mi fa so la ti do.)
Even if you were in the key of G minor, you'd use D major to give you the F#-G leading effect.
The other important move is the root movement: D to G, which is a 5th down or a 4th up.
The 7th adds an additional effect (the C in D7 goes down to the B in G), which is why dom7 chords are so popular.

Check that D7-G move again: look at (and listen to!) the top 2 strings:
-2->-3--------------
-1->-0--------------
-2---0--------------
-0---0--------------
----(2)-------------
-----3-------------

The tension is in the top 2 strings (C-F# make a dissonant"tritone") - and is resolved by one moving up and the other down. (The G string also goes down, but by whole-step, which is a weaker "tendency".)
Meanwhile the D root moves down to the G root on 6th (the (2) on 5th string is superfluous).

"Secondary dominants" are where you use this effect to lead to the roots of other chords in the key. So you can use D7 to lead to G, whatever key the G is in: keys of C and D as well as G.
Or, in key of G, you might use A or A7 instead of Am, to lead to D.

Not all "V7-I" moves work on guitar quite the same way, because the shapes are different; but they all imply the same moves. Try A7-D, E7-A, G7-C, B7-E - look for the half-step moves in particular.
One rule you can't read from the circle is: "voice-leading".

That's essentially what I've described above with the "leading tones". If ANY two chords share at least one note, while one or more other notes can be made to move by half-step, then the change will work - regardless of whether the chords are in the same key.

Imagine the guitar strings as a 6-piece choir. It's a very lazy choir. As the chords change, each voice (string) would really like to stay on the same note, and if it can't do that it would like to move by half-step, up or down. It will accept a whole step move if it absolutely has to, but no further please!

Luckily, the way we usually play guitar is with different shapes in the same position, so voice-leading normally takes care of itself. But the "lazy choir" rule means we can alter chords (change single notes), or insert transition chords, in order to get those half-step moves when the in-key chords don't provide them. Jazz does this kind of thing all the time, flattening 5ths, 7ths or 9ths, raising 3rds or 5ths, etc. (Bass lines, btw, can jump up and down quite happily. The bassman in the choir is not as lazy as the others, although he does quite enjoy scalewise descents. )

This is why songwriters who know no theory can often write quite complicated sequences, because their ears know (and trust) the "lazy choir" rule. They either don't know or don't care that they're using chords outside the key - and in any case there is no rule against that.

Thanks a lot for taking the time for schooling me. This is a great class! Succinct and to the points, and I know I will read this post quite a few times.

I suspect many new readers can do the same [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SunnyDee]

I =1 3 5 =do mi so
ii =2 4 6 =re fa la
iii =3 5 7 =mi so ti
IV =4 6 1 =fa la do
V =5 7 2 =so ti re
vi =6 1 3 =la do mi
vii° =7 2 4 =ti re fa

This may seem really simplistic for most people, but when I first learned about voice leading was also when I first noticed where the notes in chords overlap. (I really started from ZERO, but maybe someone else has, too, so maybe this is helpful to someone.) If, instead of note names for each chord in a key, we look at the scale degrees or solfege syllables, the overlap is obvious and voice leading becomes more obvious as well. These are the common triads used in major and minor scales that are the same for every key. The one below makes it even clearer how they overlap. Incidentally, solfege may be easier to read if people have trouble with dyslexia and I find it far easier to remember than numbers. I don't think I could memorize all the note names for all the triads, but it's easy for me to remember and play triads anywhere using solfege.

I =1 3 5 =do mi so
iii =3 5 7 =mi so ti
V =5 7 2 =so ti re (V7=5724=so ti re fa)
vii° =7 2 4 =ti re fa
ii =2 4 6 =re fa la
IV =4 6 1 =fa la do
vi =6 1 3 =la do mi

[Northward]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I =1 3 5 =do mi so
ii =2 4 6 =re fa la
iii =3 5 7 =mi so ti
IV =4 6 1 =fa la do
V =5 7 2 =so ti re
vi =6 1 3 =la do mi
vii° =7 2 4 =ti re fa

This may seem really simplistic for most people, but when I first learned about voice leading was also when I first noticed where the notes in chords overlap. (I really started from ZERO, but maybe someone else has, too, so maybe this is helpful to someone.) If, instead of note names for each chord in a key, we look at the scale degrees or solfege syllables, the overlap is obvious and voice leading becomes more obvious as well. These are the common triads used in major and minor scales that are the same for every key. The one below makes it even clearer how they overlap. Incidentally, solfege may be easier to read if people have trouble with dyslexia and I find it far easier to remember than numbers. I don't think I could memorize all the note names for all the triads, but it's easy for me to remember and play triads anywhere using solfege.

I =1 3 5 =do mi so
iii =3 5 7 =mi so ti
V =5 7 2 =so ti re (V7=5724=so ti re fa)
vii° =7 2 4 =ti re fa
ii =2 4 6 =re fa la
IV =4 6 1 =fa la do
vi =6 1 3 =la do mi

Curous, did you learn the solfege by heart so that you are able to sing them in any order? That's the only way this makes sense to my (reading)

Kids should learn to do this in yearly school years.

Thanks for this

[amyFB]

Sunny Dee posted a handy little chart to use for teaching ears to hear intervals in different combinations.

I was going to to suggest you start with the 1-3-5 interval (do-mi-so) because there are so many handy harmonies to be had with those three tones.

try putting the 3rd above the melody line and the 5th below it, for starters.

good luck!

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Northward

Curous, did you learn the solfege by heart so that you are able to sing them in any order? That's the only way this makes sense to my (reading)

Kids should learn to do this in yearly school years.

Thanks for this

I know a lot of people equate this with singing only and I did first learn it in ear-training, but, no, I don't really use it that way. I use solfege more as a mnemonic in this context. If you're not into it, you can just notice the scale degrees, instead, to see the overlapping notes. The point is just that you don't need to know the note names of each chord in each key to see the way the chords lead into each other in any major or minor key.

------

However, since you asked, for me, solfege is far easier to remember and, I think, carries more information than scale degrees. For example, with solfege we know that mi to fa is always, in any scale, going to be a semitone (a half step). We do not know that about 3 and 4 (which is why people use b3 and such but you don't see it consistently, and that, too, is harder for me to memorize).

So, anyway... to show how I use solfege... you know that triads are made of stacks of major and minor 3rds, right? A major chord is a major third followed by a minor 3rd. With Cmajor, CEG, C to E is a major third, E to G is a minor 3rd. In the major (and minor) scale, there are 3 major thirds: do mi, fa la, so ti. There are 4 minor thirds: la do, mi so, ti re, re fa. In learning the fretboard, I've learned how to form major and minor thirds (and other intervals) in standard tuning everywhere on the fretboard, so now I can play any triad in any key from any root just by remembering and combining those few pairs of syllables. They overlap and lead into each other. I use them like building blocks, musical legos. If I play do mi, the mi can only be followed by so to form a major triad (in these scales). I know that's a minor 3rd, how to make that shape on the fretboard, and that I'll be on the 5th of the scale when I get there. I can create chords on the fly from anywhere in any key and it's really wonderful for creating melodies that move all over the fretboard, no boxes. For me, it's very useful.

[Northward]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I know a lot of people equate this with singing only and I did first learn it in ear-training, but, no, I don't really use it that way. I use solfege more as a mnemonic in this context. If you're not into it, you can just notice the scale degrees, instead, to see the overlapping notes. The point is just that you don't need to know the note names of each chord in each key to see the way the chords lead into each other in any major or minor key.

------

However, since you asked, for me, solfege is far easier to remember and, I think, carries more information than scale degrees. For example, with solfege we know that mi to fa is always, in any scale, going to be a semitone or half step. We do not know that about 3 and 4 (which is why people use b3 and such but you don't see it consistently, and that, too, is harder for me to memorize).

So, anyway... to show how I use solfege... you know that triads are made of stacks of major and minor 3rds, right? A major chord is a major third followed by a minor 3rd. With Cmajor, CEG, C to E is a major third, E to G is a minor 3rd. In the major (and minor) scale, there are 3 major thirds: do mi, fa la, so ti. There are 4 minor thirds: la do, mi so, ti re, re fa. In learning the fretboard, I've learned how to form major and minor thirds (and other intervals) in standard tuning everywhere on the fretboard, so now I can play any triad in any key from any root just by remembering and combining those few pairs of syllables. They overlap and lead into each other. I use them like building blocks, musical legos. If I play do mi, the mi can only be followed by so to form a major triad (in these scales). I know that's a minor 3rd, how to make that shape on the fretboard, and that I'll be on the 5th of the scale when I get there. I can create chords on the fly from anywhere in any key and it's really wonderful for creating melodies that move all over the fretboard, no boxes. For me, it's very useful.

Yes, that last part really sounded liberating to be able to. Musical Legos! a great title for a friendly book

As for all of the above, it's early days for me still with music theory and this thread is quite a handful. This forum is quite fantastic with it's crowd of accumulated experience - that gladly share! And going through what I've been presented here in succinct form, I have a very good tool to composing better with the Circle of fifths.

As for triads I read somewhere in here that that was bang on for bass players, as it covers a lot. I think I'll get that with time.

Musical chord changes has always corresponded to moods and different colours in my head. I didn't bother learning chord names, but I remembered by how their sound 'feels' and can revoke that with how a songs story goes or whatever mood. In fact it is a system that works for me. But why not learn the old proven system. I'm sure this will help for more quality overall in my stuff. Especially those times when things dry out and there is a musical 'map' to help find my way home. Old stems that never really became songs now will have a second chance riding the wheel of fortune ;-)

Thanks!

NB: thanks to amyFB too for your tip. I have quite a lot to try out now

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

For example, with solfege we know that mi to fa is always, in any scale, going to be a semitone or half step. We do not know that about 3 and 4 (which is why people use b3 and such but you don't see it consistently, and that, too, is harder for me to memorize).

Not to nit pick mate But why do we not know that with 3 to 4? It too will always be a semitone or whole tone. Using b3 gives us even more information, because then we know it's definitely a whole step to the 4.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Not to nit pick mate But why do we not know that with 3 to 4? It too will always be a semitone or whole tone. Using b3 gives us even more information, because then we know it's definitely a whole step to the 4.

It's just what you said here, from the numbers alone, I don't know if it's a semitone OR a whole tone OR, as in the case of a major pentatonic, a tone and a half. The numbers 3 and 4, alone, don't carry that information for me. I would have to remember it separately. There's no such ambiguity with solfege.

Using solfege also helps me see how scales and modes are related. http://www.dee.email/OPEN/scalesmodes.jpg

If we're going to describe a scale with scale degrees, my understanding is that we do use flats and sharps to do it accurately, but that is not done consistently when people talk about or teach it, especially on guitar, where people like to use "systems" that leave out a lot of theory.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

It's just what you said here, from the numbers alone, I don't know if it's a semitone OR a whole tone OR, as in the case of a major pentatonic, a tone and a half. The numbers 3 and 4, alone, don't carry that information for me. I would have to remember it separately. There's no such ambiguity with solfege.



Using solfege also helps me see how scales and modes are related. http://www.dee.email/OPEN/scalesmodes.jpg



If we're going to describe a scale with scale degrees, my understanding is that we do use flats and sharps to do it accurately, but that is not done consistently when people talk about or teach it, especially on guitar, where people like to use "systems" that leave out a lot of theory.

Sunny Dee - you have such interesting and informative posts!

I love this chart and the explanation of solfege.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mattbn73]

I think two different things are being discussed here. Numbered scale degrees with flats and sharps work really well on paper. If you're talking about SINGING or verbalizing otherwise, numbers with alterations can breakdown more can be a little more awkward.

Solfeggio is probably more helpful for singing. Singing "three" when it's a flat three or actually singing "flat three" illustrates some of those issues.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

I think two different things are being discussed here. Numbered scale degrees with flats and sharps work really well on paper. If you're talking about SINGING or verbalizing otherwise, numbers with alterations can breakdown more can be a little more awkward.

Solfeggio is probably more helpful for singing. Singing "three" when it's a flat three or actually singing "flat three" illustrates some of those issues.

Let me just make this clear. I don't, personally, use it for singing. But, yes, we are talking about two different ways of describing scale intervals. If a person is just learning, I think just memorizing one way is probably helpful. Oth, I do know descriptions like 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 but not in a way that I can instinctively play it anywhere on the fretboard.