Looking for a nice set of Brazilian Kingwood

[mcgr40]

looking at the listed tangential shrinkage rate of pernambuco of 8.1%, and comparing that to the listed tangential value for BRW, 4.6%, A pernambuco flat sawn plate should "wish" to move nearly twice as much as BRW. Pernambuco quartersawn(radial) shrinkage rate is quoted as 5.1% with in 10% of the value for flatsawn BRW.
Of course who really knows if the listed values are truly accurate. And there are bound to be variations in shrinkage rate with species examples. But if the stated values were absolutely true one might guess a quartered pernambuco back to be ever so slightly more likely to crack than a flatsawn brazilian rosewood example.

[Jamiejoon]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Bah whatever, the reality is in the guitars that you see on the market.

Not very many guitars built with kingwood indeed.

Merry Christmas, Scroogey.

Ah, I see, the wisdom of crowds. In my line of work, exceptional performance is not achieved through following conventional wisdom, but by cultivating unconventional wisdom. Markets are not perfect. Your field may be different. John Kinnaird is currently building me a guitar made of Pau Santo. Since consumers in the US have not heard of Pau Santo, your logic would indicate that Pau Santo cannot make a truly exceptional guitar. We will see, but I am optimistic it will make an absolutely terrific guitar. In the US, most consumers have never heard of Pernambuco, but I understand (from Bruce Sexauer and others more knowledgable than me) that Pernambuco makes a transcendant guitar in the right hands. Kingwood has a reputation as a very musical wood, albeit one which is extremely difficult to find in quartersawn pieces of sufficient size to make a guitar. I am seeking out the best set(s) I can find, and am hopeful that it will make an incredible, and beautiful, guitar. I recognize the risk I am taking, and I really don't care if I have the approval of the masses in my decision. Yay freedom!

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Jamiejoon

Ah, I see, the wisdom of crowds. In my line of work, exceptional performance is not achieved through following conventional wisdom, but by cultivating unconventional wisdom. Markets are not perfect. Your field may be different. John Kinnaird is currently building me a guitar made of Pau Santo. Since consumers in the US have not heard of Pau Santo, your logic would indicate that Pau Santo cannot make a truly exceptional guitar. We will see, but I am optimistic it will make an absolutely terrific guitar. In the US, most consumers have never heard of Pernambuco, but I understand (from Bruce Sexauer and others more knowledgable than me) that Pernambuco makes a transcendant guitar in the right hands. Kingwood has a reputation as a very musical wood, albeit one which is extremely difficult to find in quartersawn pieces of sufficient size to make a guitar. I am seeking out the best set(s) I can find, and am hopeful that it will make an incredible, and beautiful, guitar. I recognize the risk I am taking, and I really don't care if I have the approval of the masses in my decision. Yay freedom!

You are putting words in my mouth that I have never said.

All that I've said is that kingwood is not so exceptional that I would make sacrifices to obtain it. I would not consider a 3+ piece back or a flatsawn set.

I simply would get another similar tonewood that's available for two piece backs, quartersawn. The market seems to agree with me.

In the right hands, any decent wood can make a decent guitar. Some would even say that veneers can sound great. I'm all for diversity.

Kingwood has the reputation of being a "very musical" tonewood. What is that supposed to mean? Is BRW not musical? Is mahogany not musical? Is maple not musical? Your quote is very romantic but ultimately means nothing concrete, Scroogey.

Otherwise nobody has said that you needed anyone's approval to buy whatever you want. It's your money, it's your guitar. Go nuts.

[Jamiejoon]

Here’s a set of “old” Kingwood that I already had, which I am very much hoping will be built into a baritone uke. Eliminate the edges of the set and leave just the very nice straight-grained wood. I reckon when the oxidized surface is sanded off, the violet will come out, and will make a nice contrast with the sapwood.

[Schau_ins_Regal]

Originally Posted by dneal

I didn't think much of the Kingwood they had, but this set of Madagascar looks sweet.

https://shop.espen.de/en/Tonewood-Ac...piece-106.html

I am amateur luthier and am located in Germany. Do you think I should get the set? Is it a good price for madagascar rosewood of this quality?

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Schau_ins_Regal

I am amateur luthier and am located in Germany. Do you think I should get the set? Is it a good price for madagascar rosewood of this quality?

Looks like a decent set and a good price. Make sure you pay the extra for the CITES document - this will be very handy if you wish to export the guitar or sell the set.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Bruce Sexauer]

Given what we KNOW about harvesting procedures in Madagascar, how can this be a good price? Further, if the wood does not come with CITES certification but it can be acquired by applying money and time, what does this say to you about its actual provenance?

[Schau_ins_Regal]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Given what we KNOW about harvesting procedures in Madagascar, how can this be a good price?

Sorry, I don´t know anything about the harvest procedures. Can you further explain please?

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Further, if the wood does not come with CITES certification but it can be acquired by applying money and time, what does this say to you about its actual provenance?

How familiar are you with the German bureaucratic system Bruce?

Germany has a rather complicated system when it comes to CITES documentation which involves not only form filling but inspections, all of which has to be to paid for. All by the timber "owner." German bureaucracy is rather overwhelming. Certainly when compared to the UK.

So it doesn't surprise me that the timber sellers would seek to be reimbursed for the time they spend when applying to the local Bundesamt fur Naturschutz for transferring paperwork to a new owner. It takes time and energy. I know how much time and energy it took up for me to get certificates for my stock.

€80 per set seems good value to me.
Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Schau_ins_Regal]

Nigel, nice to know that you live in Leipzig...

Regarding CITES... I do not even care about that right now. I am just looking for a nice B/S set that I can pair with Master Italian Soundbard.

The guitar will most likely be for myself or I sell it to someone who doesn´t travel outside EU.

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Schau_ins_Regal

Nigel, nice to know that you live in Leipzig...

Regarding CITES... I do not even care about that right now. I am just looking for a nice B/S set that I can pair with Master Italian Soundbard.

The guitar will most likely be for myself or I sell it to someone who doesn´t travel outside EU.

Ha! We actually left Leipzig (and Germany) two days ago. We were there just over two years. A lovely city and a great place to live, but learning German is beyond me. Time to move on!

Bruce made a good point about questioning the background of the wood - I forget, I've not bought a new sawn set of back and sides for ten years. I tend not to keep up with the timber "news."

If you're looking for sets to buy, email makers near you - if a maker exports a lot, they will have been hit by this years additions to CITES, and they may well be keen to sell on the stock they have even if they have had their inspection and received their certificates.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Schau_ins_Regal]

Originally Posted by N K Forster

If you're looking for sets to buy, email makers near you - if a maker exports a lot, they will have been hit by this years additions to CITES, and they may well be keen to sell on the stock they have even if they have had their inspection and received their certificates.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

Why is that so?

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Schau_ins_Regal

Why is that so?

Well, it depends if you export beyond the EU or not. If you don't, then not much changes. If you do, it means a lot more paperwork and a lot more hassle. It also means a LOT more hassle in the rare event of a warranty issue.

Some makers are happy to take this extra hassle on, some are not. So some are happy to keep their existing stocks of rosewoods and some are happy to move them on to amateur makers or to other pros who don't export so much.

There is no harm in emailing local makers to ask. You also might get your hands on wood which has been cut years ago.

Nigel

www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Bruce Sexauer]

My points are:

Madagascar is being devastated by illegally and immoral logging practices, and it is the rule rather than the exception. google it.

If the wood were of the more palatable nature, it should have come with the CITES documentation already in place, not as an after thought. The fact that the documentation can be bought after the fact just shows how corrupt the system actually is.

If you don't care about these things, then you are part of the problem. I am not saying that no wood should change hands w/o documentation, I am saying that we should all care about these things and do what we can to understand how the wood got to us. Each person then lives with the burden of responsibility they re willing to shoulder, but naivety is not longer viable. IMO, or course.

[Bruce Sexauer]

While I do stand by all the stuff I said in the last couple of "contributions", I notice I am having a lousy day centered around home heater failure, non-responsive technicians, and a "concerned" wife. My apologies for being a bit sanctimonious, it is not really my business, and I have certainly made plenty of my own mistakes getting to my current understanding.