Solo Fingerstyle lesson plan - what should it include?

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Your point is really a good one!

When I read your first sentence I was ready to start typing...."what? Hey that's a C add 9 not a maj 9" .... but then I read the next sentence

One thing I realized not that long ago is that difficult sounding chord names above a melody line only happen because the author of the notation was trying to define the new chord name to include melody notes below not in the "regular" chord. It's not like the composer really said "gosh I think I'll throw in a G7#5b9 here"!! Music is sometimes made harder than it really needs to be.

True enough! When I do an arrangement, I first block in a really basic arrangement as I showed in my earlier post with a scan of "Over The Rainbow". What is relevant here to notice is that all the chords were distilled down to there basic nature. That G7#5b9, I would call a G7. If there was a reason that I had to have the #5 and/or b9 in it, then I suppose I could leave that in the name. But to me, it is just nomenclature and I am just getting the thing set in my head so I can work with it. I can certainly readily play a G7#5b9 (G B D# F Ab), but why (unless it is appropriate in context).

Joe Pass always said that, to him, there are three kinds of chords:

major
minor
dominant

He broke everything down into these three categories so he could work with them quickly and easily. Sure, he played all the "color tones" (i.e. in your example, the #5 and b9), but he still thought of the basic chord.

If you look at the page that I scanned, and then listen to what I played in the Youtube video, you will readily hear chords that were not on the sheet. As you said, we don't need to overly complicate things.

As for the "add 9" vs " major 9", the difference, according to music theory is that if the 7 element is present then you can name the chord by whatever the highest element is (i.e. 9, 11, 13 and alterations thereof). If the 7 is not there, then these same elements are said to be "added" (i.e. add 9).

I choose to THINK of the C major chord with the 9 stuck on top as the melody, as being a major 9 chord ( a "9th" chord typically implies a dominant 7 chord with a 9 stuck on it). My reason is that I don't write down C major 9 or C add 9, instead I write simply 'C' and the add what I need when I play it. In conversation, I will say 'C major 9' because then I have the liberty of playing the major 7 or not, and still be correct. A bit cheating according to strict theory, but who really cares? Some days, I want to hear the major 7, and other days, not. Playing a b7 (dominant 7) would not be right because suddenly, I have a tonal center of F (though maybe I want that too...).

It is obvious that Grinning Boy knows his theory, and we are just having a bit fun here. For anyone reading this post who doesn't know their basic theory (or not as well), consider it a prime example of how F'ed up things can get when we get all wrapped around the axle and stop playing because we started over-thinking.

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

True enough! When I do an arrangement, I first block in a really basic arrangement as I showed in my earlier post with a scan of "Over The Rainbow". What is relevant here to notice is that all the chords were distilled down to there basic nature. That G7#5b9, I would call a G7. If there was a reason that I had to have the #5 and/or b9 in it, then I suppose I could leave that in the name. But to me, it is just nomenclature and I am just getting the thing set in my head so I can work with it. I can certainly readily play a G7#5b9 (G B D# F Ab), but why (unless it is appropriate in context).

Joe Pass always said that, to him, there are three kinds of chords:

major
minor
dominant

He broke everything down into these three categories so he could work with them quickly and easily. Sure, he played all the "color tones" (i.e. in your example, the #5 and b9), but he still thought of the basic chord.

If you look at the page that I scanned, and then listen to what I played in the Youtube video, you will readily hear chords that were not on the sheet. As you said, we don't need to overly complicate things.

As for the "add 9" vs " major 9", the difference, according to music theory is that if the 7 element is present then you can name the chord by whatever the highest element is (i.e. 9, 11, 13 and alterations thereof). If the 7 is not there, then these same elements are said to be "added" (i.e. add 9).

I choose to THINK of the C major chord with the 9 stuck on top as the melody, as being a major 9 chord ( a "9th" chord typically implies a dominant 7 chord with a 9 stuck on it). My reason is that I don't write down C major 9 or C add 9, instead I write simply 'C' and the add what I need when I play it. In conversation, I will say 'C major 9' because then I have the liberty of playing the major 7 or not, and still be correct. A bit cheating according to strict theory, but who really cares? Some days, I want to hear the major 7, and other days, not. Playing a b7 (dominant 7) would not be right because suddenly, I have a tonal center of F (though maybe I want that too...).

It is obvious that Grinning Boy knows his theory, and we are just having a bit fun here. For anyone reading this post who doesn't know their basic theory (or not as well), consider it a prime example of how F'ed up things can get when we get all wrapped around the axle and stop playing because we started over-thinking.

Tony

This all makes perfect sense Tony.

I'd been meaning to go back and study your post about arranging that you did with "Rainbow". Time is tight right now because I'm an accountant in my crazy time but getting away to talk about guitar and music keeps me sane.

I really liked your arrangement, and the sound of your new guitar! Nylon is so nice.

Your approach to sketching out the arrangement is very logical. With your approach you're able to start at the bones of the tune and build an arrangement from scratch which is very cool. I also like your notations for Chord/melody, Melody and Bass. EllaMom I think Tony's approach would be very helpful to you.

I also like your idea of contributing videos of our own arrangements for discussion purposes. I've been meaning to get a video recorder and it looks like your new one does the job nicely. I'd like to jump in and join!
Paul

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

This all makes perfect sense Tony.

I'd been meaning to go back and study your post about arranging that you did with "Rainbow". Time is tight right now because I'm an accountant in my crazy time but getting away to talk about guitar and music keeps me sane.

I really liked your arrangement, and the sound of your new guitar! Nylon is so nice.

Your approach to sketching out the arrangement is very logical. With your approach you're able to start at the bones of the tune and build an arrangement from scratch which is very cool. I also like your notations for Chord/melody, Melody and Bass. EllaMom I think Tony's approach would be very helpful to you.

I also like your idea of contributing videos of our own arrangements for discussion purposes. I've been meaning to get a video recorder and it looks like your new one does the job nicely. I'd like to jump in and join!
Paul

Grinning Boy, I am really impressed! I was hoping others would contribute their own arrangements at some point, because then we really get into the nuts and bolts of arranging. We then have something real to chew on. This isn't all about who does the best arrangement or sounds the best playing it.

If we just do a quick arrangement and, without much rehearsing, play it, we can expect it to be "raw". But that is exactly what we want - the beginning stages of an arrangement before we get to far away from that and into the ornamentation that makes for a polished performance. By then, we have hidden all the foundational work that is being discussed in this thread.

You seem to grasp that right away. I hope you do get to it at some point. If that doesn't happen until tax season is done, we can either revisit this thread or start another one that just focuses on arranging a tune. We could collectively pick a tune and all do an arrangement of it, or stick with the one that EllaMom picked for us - "Over The Rainbow".

I appreciated your response!

Oh yeah, as for video recorders, there are a bunch of them out there, and many probably do a better job than my Zoom Q8. what I like about the Q8 is that it is very easy to use. Also, the view thin flips around so I can see it while sitting with my guitar. That is HUGE because the biggest hassle (to me) about recording a video of myself would be making sure I get what is needed into the picture. Trial and error would be too frustrating, and I don't have a place to leave the camera set up once I eventually find the right positioning. So, for me, having that viewer that flips over so I can see it while playing my guitar is what closed the deal (not to mention the open box discount). I saw on Amazon these things sell for $389. I paid a bit over $200 for mine.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Since there does seem to be some interest in arranging here, this is a blocked in arranging in Travis style (alternating bass) of "Hound Dog"...



I did this last night just to see how well a Travis style arrangement could be started with this method. It is surprisingly easy, in fact. I don't intend to really pursue this arrangement and make a video. For me, it was just a quick experiment, but for somebody who likes this type of music, it could be fun to really make into something worth playing.

In this basic form, it works, but is rather boring. It is, however, a good starting point for playing it until it is comfortable and then adding interest by changing texture, adding a walking bass, or even completely replacing that thumb endlessly banging back forth with the bass line from the original Elvis recording (one, rest, and three and four and...).

By the way, this can be played entirely in the open position. The F is a barre, but the rest of it is pretty easy.

Edit: The arrangement as shown has only two lines - the melody and the bass. When I played through it, I was throwing in harmony between these two lines, and that is typically what anybody would probably do. The less there is in the arrangement as written, the more that the player can do with it (at least that is my feeling about it). To me, playing it differently each time would be far more interesting than memorizing the thing note for note and doing it the same every time. So what is written is just a framework within which to do whatever seems right at the time.

Have fun...

Tony

[rick-slo]

Many years ago specifically for another guitar forum I wrote two tunes.

One, called "Scamp", became a group progress project for a few of those forum members.

The other, called "Thumb Play", is an easy straight forward alternate thumbing tune.
However this one is in open G tuning.

If interested, they are in the free tab section of my website.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Many years ago specifically for another guitar forum I wrote two tunes.

One, called "Scamp", became a group progress project for a few of those forum members.

The other, called "Thumb Play", is an easy straight forward alternate thumbing tune.
However this one is in open G tuning.

If interested, they are in the free tab section of my website.

Thanks Rick (Derek)! Much appreciated.

Your offer leads to something that some of us have been thinking about...

A couple of us have briefly discussed, via email, the possibility of starting a completely new thread here in the "Play" section that would serve as a study group for arranging tunes. Maybe it would be better to have a new thread for each tune, so they don't run too many pages. Anyway, I remember study groups from college, and they were really quite helpful - as long as the folks who attended contributed in a positive and constructive manner. There won't be any mid-terms or finals (and no degree) , but we can certainly learn from each other in a positive, stress-free environment and take as long as we want/need to do it.

We could pick a tune and then we each come up with a quick arrangement, much as I did with the two I posted. These are certainly not polished arrangements, but could become that as they progress. So then we each have our own project, but it is the same tune. We post video or audio of us playing the tune at various points along the way as the arrangement develops, and maybe (optional) the jpeg or pdf of the arrangement, if we are writing anything down, in the thread.

So, this isn't a project where we pick a tune and then we all work on the same arrangement. We each do our own, and share our thoughts and work so we all learn from each other in the context of the same tune. When we feel we have done enough on that tune, we can pick another and start again.

This would be a participating thread, in which everybody is posting audio or video of their playing and discussing how they did what they did. It is all too easy to post a lot of words telling everybody how to do arranging, but not be able to come up with an arrangement and present it. This thread would be "real" in the sense that everybody actively participates and contributes both their arrangement as it evolves and the discussion of what they are doing to it.

This would not be contest of who plays the best or who does the best arrangement or wo knows the most. Instead, it is a study group of peers going in the same general direction, but bringing different arranging methods, styles, and techniques to the thread so we all learn from each other.

Would anybody here (lurking, participating, or whatever) be interested in such a thread and study group?

Tony

[EllaMom]

I would love to follow such a thread, as I know I would learn a TON. I'm not yet to the place where I am arranging music, however. But arranging is where I'm headed, so the wisdom of the group would be quite valuable to me. Thanks for asking, Tony.

[rick-slo]

Picking a tune and people making their own arrangements was a popular thing on this forum a while back. You might find old those threads in this Play section of the forum. The sound clips people posted are probably not available anymore however.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Would anybody here (lurking, participating, or whatever) be interested in such a thread and study group?

I've participated in things like this a number of times overt the years, in different forums. I think it's a great idea, and I'd try to join in, time permitting

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

kap55/Brian, that is a GREAT question.



Here is one I found right off, that is one of my favorite songs, and this version doesn't seem to be very hard:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PihW...=RDPihWdY4vNag

I would characterize that as "chord melody " style of play.

For me , the fast way is - i would learn chord inversions, all the moveable chord shapes, do that first, and then, with attentive ears on, the melody is right under your fingers or a fret away.

Hope that helps a little, good luck




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I've participated in things like this a number of times overt the years, in different forums. I think it's a great idea, and I'd try to join in, time permitting

Doug, that would be GREAT! You are "way up there" and your skills are enviable. Your input would be very much appreciated.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Picking a tune and people making their own arrangements was a popular thing on this forum a while back. You might find old those threads in this Play section of the forum. The sound clips people posted are probably not available anymore however.

I searched and found a bunch of old threads very similar to this one, and they had some great information in them. I would suggest that the OP look through those too. However, I didn't find the threads that were working on an arrangement. Maybe I didn't go far enough back?

Tony

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by amyFB

I would characterize that as "chord melody " style of play.

For me , the fast way is - i would learn chord inversions, all the moveable chord shapes, do that first, and then, with attentive ears on, the melody is right under your fingers or a fret away.

Hope that helps a little, good luck




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, amyfb. Yes, I believe chord melody is where I'm headed! The discussion here and connections made as a result have been invaluable to me!

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I searched and found a bunch of old threads very similar to this one, and they had some great information in them. I would suggest that the OP look through those too. However, I didn't find the threads that were working on an arrangement. Maybe I didn't go far enough back?

Tony

Tony, tips on how to most efficiently search to bring up the pertinent threads? I've not done a lot of searching on this forum (time constraints), other than for something very specific, such as "GS Mini." Thanks!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

Tony, tips on how to most efficiently search to bring up the pertinent threads? I've not done a lot of searching on this forum (time constraints), other than for something very specific, such as "GS Mini." Thanks!

All I did was click on "Search" along the bar on the AGF display that shows "User CP", "FAQ", "Community", "Calendar", "New Posts", "Search", "Quick Links", and "Log Out".

I use the default search method and simply entered "arranging".

Tony