strategy and tactics of practice

[onkeltuka]

I see that there's been lately several similar posts here, but I don't want to highjack other user's posts so here goes:

My problem with practicing is the lack of direction I'm experiencing. I take private lessons where I study W. Leavitt's "Modern Method for Guitar" (I'm on page 60 of vol. 1), at home I'm nibbling on bluesy stuff from Youtube and The Interwebs (a hopeless mess!), and I would also like to learn fingerstyle and DADGAD sounds so good as well...

I don't have a certain player and/or a style of playing that would be JUST the thing I want to emulate/become. And somehow I think that is my problem; I would just like to become a better player and musician, and that is such a broad idea that there is really not much "pointedness" in my ambitions and practice.

So... is this stuff like learning Chinese; just keep on banging at it and suddenly after three years it all starts coming together?

[EllaMom]

HAHAHAHA...it took me longer than 3 years before things started to really come together. I've found these elements to be crucial for a foundation upon which to build, no matter the style you might focus on later:

--learning notes on the fretboard: many different ways to do this...I've found one that is easy for me and seems to be sticking

--learning basic chords and changing smoothly from one to another

--the CAGED system as a way to find any chord anywhere on the neck

Those seem pretty fundamental, right? Well, what happened with me is that I've had teachers and others tell me to just play songs. Yes, I was able to do that, but never really understood what I was playing or why certain pieces fit together in the arrangements I learned, but other pieces I tried wouldn't fit. I lacked the fundamentals.

At least I seem to have a direction, some structure, and a goal in mind. It's the first time, here in the last few weeks, that I could truly say that. And I've been at this for 5+ years!

[TBman]

Its easy to get lost for hours with a guitar. I'm going to approach the guitar like we do at work.

Make a list of songs.
Get it done.
Make the next list, etc.

But I can say this after playing on and off for 50+ years. I know the notes up to the 5th fret, after that I have to "count using my fingers" sort of. I'm not into arranging my own versions of songs and rarely do I write anything more complicated than a blues I IV V tune.

I think the biggest thing since sliced bread for me was learning a couple of E minor blues pentatonic patterns. Using E7, A7 and B7 and the patterns, I can literally improvise for hours if I desire.

Then going to another key is like getting a new toy.

I IV V and pentatonic should be in everyone's tool kit if you like the blues.

Onkeltuka, if you like bluesy stuff and want to learn fingerstyle blues, try www.ActiveMelody.com

[rick-slo]

Do a lot of listening to find tunes that you like and then work your way through the ones that seem doable (tabs, scores, by ear, videos, whatever).

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

HAHAHAHA...it took me longer than 3 years before things started to really come together. I've found these elements to be crucial for a foundation upon which to build, no matter the style you might focus on later:

--learning notes on the fretboard: many different ways to do this...I've found one that is easy for me and seems to be sticking

--learning basic chords and changing smoothly from one to another

--the CAGED system as a way to find any chord anywhere on the neck

Those seem pretty fundamental, right? Well, what happened with me is that I've had teachers and others tell me to just play songs. Yes, I was able to do that, but never really understood what I was playing or why certain pieces fit together in the arrangements I learned, but other pieces I tried wouldn't fit. I lacked the fundamentals.

At least I seem to have a direction, some structure, and a goal in mind. It's the first time, here in the last few weeks, that I could truly say that. And I've been at this for 5+ years!

Boy (Girl...) does that sound familiar. Why is it so difficult to find a teacher who will start at the beginning and just walk through these things and into arranging? For some people, all you have to do, apparently, is say "go listen to tunes and play them". For others, such as myself, I want a step by step process to teach me the rudiments of the arranging process so I can take it from there. I don't think I am any dumber than the next person, but I do recognize my learning style and what I need to take in information.

It took me quite some time to find materials that really do that well. Unfortunately, much of what I found is now out of print, and (to me) much of what is available today either seems to start in the middle somewhere or doesn't teach the style of arranging that I wanted to learn. I never did find a teacher for this, but found materials that provided it and then went on my own. i am still, and will always be, learning.

It has been said that for a person for whom a thing comes naturally, teaching it would be difficult because that person didn't have to work at it through minute steps as somebody for whom it comes with great effort. I worked with a guy who had the opportunity to join a minor league baseball team, but opted to go into engineering because he didn't feel the lifestyle of a baseball player lent itself to having a family and settling down. He often said that it was not the star baseball players with natural ability that made good coaches and teachers, but the ones who never got beyond mediocrity and had to work hard to get that far.

Based on what my co-worker said, I suppose I would make a good teacher: worked hard to learn to arrange and play guitar, and will never be an Earl Klugh.

Oh, I didn't address the OP's question.

I have a simple, but effective (for my interests) practice routine that I do every day:

1. Pick a note at random and find it all over the fretboard, starting at the lowest occurence of the note on the 6th string and going along each string to the highest occurrence on the first string, and then retrace my steps ending back down at that first occurrence on the 6th string. I got this from Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry". Because of this exercise, I can literally see all the notes on the fretboard as clearly as the keys on a piano.
2. Using that same note, as the root of a chord, I play that chord through the CAGED system across the fretboard.
3. For each of those CAGED forms (for that chord), I play the major scale form.
4. I then play that major scale along each string. I got that from Mick Goodrick's "Advancing Guitarist".

That ends my daily warm-up. The whole thing takes probably two minutes, but the dividends are tremendous for arranging on the guitar.

There is always controversy about whether the CAGED forms are limiting, some sort of trap, or just may have some redeeming value. For me, they have value, for others they may not. It depends on the person. when the CAGED system is usually taught, based on what I see on web sites, many of these sites don't seem to go beyond and underneath the basic forms. I suspect many folks teach the CAGED system because it is convenient as a starting point. If they REALLY took the time to wring every last drop from these forms, they would find a world of information in them - all your inversions on all string sets, every possible chord that can be built, etc. I can build any chord, anywhere on the fretboard because of how I am able to see and manipulate those shapes. Unfortunately for the CAGED system, we tend to spend 5 minutes learning the basic 5 shapes and then get bored, and are ready to rush on to the next thing. I made a set of 8.5" x 11" cards, each with one of the CAGED forms. I highlighted the form and marked every note in and around that form with the chord elements so that I could quickly see all the possibilities for scales of every kind I might need and every chord and inversion. You could lay those cards together so you could see everything in between two forms. Those were my "flash cards" and "chord dictionary" for years.

After that quick warm-up, I am free to play through tunes I already have well in hand. Then, I spend time writing an arrangement or learning one from one of the "masters" I have mentioned in other posts. If I pick a tune to arrange that I have a "master" arrangement of, I can arrange the tune myself and then check it against that "master" arrangement, comparing to see what I could have done better such as choosing a different key or getting new ideas for how to make the arrangement flow.

I spend time listening to my favorite solo guitar players in this style, as well as the tunes by the original artists. I have a extensive collection of CDs by Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra, collections of 60s and 70s pop tunes, etc, etc. I do this because I like the music, rather than because it is my "assignment". There is a big difference in attitude between the two, and it certainly affects the outcome. You have to really love this music.

Thee is no right or wrong way to practice, but there are ways that are more or less suitable for what a person wants to accomplish. If I wanted to play like Toby Walker or Larry Pattis, or even Jimi Hendrix, I suspect my approach and materials would be very different from what I describe here. We have to really know what it is we are aiming for (our destination) before we can plan our journey.

Over the years, I have both collected everything I felt I needed to learn to play the way I want to, and in hindsight, I am very glad I did because so much of the printed material is unavailable today. This includes both collections of CDs that have the original artists singing the tunes, as well as solo guitar players playing them. It also includes the very few books that really teach this style of arranging (unfortunately, long out of print) and all the arrangements from the "masters" I have mentioned that I could get my hands on, making my study almost like an apprenticeship with these master arrangers. By defining exactly what I wanted to learn, I was able to focus specifically on that area. it is very unfortunate that it is difficult to find both teachers for this style of arranging (many teach "fingerstyle/fingerpicking") and really high quality, professional arrangements such as one would play in a fine restaurant setting. For me, there is real joy in learning and playing these tunes and I don't really need an audience to get that enjoyment. The process is where the real enjoyment comes from.

Tony

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Boy (Girl...) does that sound familiar. Why is it so difficult to find a teacher who will start at the beginning and just walk through these things and into arranging? It took me quite some time to find materials that really do that well. Unfortunately, much of what I found is now out of print, and (to me) much of what is available today either seems to start in the middle somewhere or doesn't teach the style of arranging that I wanted to learn. I never did find a teacher for this, but found materials that provided it and then went on my own. i am still, and will always be, learning.

It has been said that for a person for whom a thing comes naturally, teaching it would be difficult because that person didn't have to work at it through minute steps as somebody for whom it comes with great effort. I worked with a guy who had the opportunity to join a minor league baseball team, but opted to go into engineering because he didn't feel the lifestyle of a baseball player lent itself to having a family and settling down. He often said that it was not the star baseball players with natural ability that made good coaches and teachers, but the ones who never got beyond mediocrity and had to work hard to get that far.

Based on what my co-worker said, I suppose I would make a good teacher: worked hard to learn to arrange and play guitar, and will never be an Earl Klugh.

Tony

I will volunteer to be your first official, card-carrying student, Tony! I already am in many ways. You are so skilled at explaining the fundamentals, not just WHAT they are, but WHY they are important and HOW they fit into solo fingerstyle (my path). Thanks!

[onkeltuka]

Thanks everybody for your insights into this, I appreciate them greatly

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Thee is no right or wrong way to practice, but there are ways that are more or less suitable for what a person wants to accomplish. If I wanted to play like Toby Walker or Larry Pattis, or even Jimi Hendrix, I suspect my approach and materials would be very different from what I describe here. We have to really know what it is we are aiming for (our destination) before we can plan our journey.

Tony

This is probably the first thing I need to work with; as said, I'm all over the place with celtic, bluegrass, blues, swing.... maybe I should just "pick one" for the time being, at least?

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by onkeltuka

Thanks everybody for your insights into this, I appreciate them greatly


This is probably the first thing I need to work with; as said, I'm all over the place with celtic, bluegrass, blues, swing.... maybe I should just "pick one" for the time being, at least?

Just a couple of possible thoughts...

You could pick one OR you could determine what the various styles you are interested in have in common and start working on that - laying a foundation that will help you to go where you want to go. That is a much more general approach than I was describing. It really depends on your learning style.

One thing any music would have in common with any other music is that if you know your way around the fretboard, you can find the music on it. Of course, if you delve into open tuning then this part may be as straightforward as staying in standard tuning. However, there are some approaches to open tunings that seem to find enough similarities to make it easier to go from one to the other. I have not dug into these, so I can't comment on them beyond that they exist and might be worth looking for, if that is your interest.

Different styles will have different techniques and phrasing, so you may want to focus on one set of these at a time.

Tony

[Tritone Sub]

Originally Posted by onkeltuka

My problem with practicing is the lack of direction I'm experiencing.

So... is this stuff like learning Chinese; just keep on banging at it and suddenly after three years it all starts coming together?

Wow man, I have this problem since 25 years and still not solved. Anyway after 24 and 3/4 years I made some analysis:
http://50shadesofguitar.weebly.com/b...etter-musician

[dkstott]

has anyone out west attended this?

http://centrum.org/port-townsend-aco...ival-workshop/



Wondering how much fingerstyle is taught there?

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by dkstott

has anyone out west attended this?

http://centrum.org/port-townsend-aco...ival-workshop/



Wondering how much fingerstyle is taught there?

I have not, but I've been to that town, and it is lovely!

[tbeltrans]

Here is my experience with these kinds of events...

I found them to be very inspiring. I would come back from these and be ultra-motivated for a few weeks before routine set in again. I met a lot of interesting folks and exchanged ideas. It was a very positive thing.

On the negative (for me) side, my learning style doesn't match with the quick-stop method of an hour long seminar. I need to start at the beginning and step through whatever the process is. Because of that, I might come away with some new ideas to explore on my own, but not with anything I could readily make use of as a result of having really comprehended what was being taught. This is reflection on me and my learning style, and not on any festival.

I have never attended the festival in question, but have attended other festivals as well as seminars given locally by visiting artists.

Over time, I have learned that it is important to know ourselves and our individual needs and learning styles. We can then set our expectations accordingly. As an example, if I were to go to a festival again, I would attend with the expectation of having fun meeting new people and having, however brief, exposure to ideas I might not experience otherwise. I would definitely not have expectations of really learning something I can put to practical use.

As used to be said in these forums quite often YMMV (your mileage might vary).

Tony

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by onkeltuka

My problem with practicing is the lack of direction I'm experiencing. I take private lessons where I study W. Leavitt's "Modern Method for Guitar" (I'm on page 60 of vol. 1), ...

I've had private lessons with 4 different teachers over the past 50 some years. They all always accepted and basically insisted that they give me my direction with regard to my practice regime, to build and layer what I learned. That, in part, is what they were getting paid for. That's especially true of my teachers as a youngster learning and then building on the very basics. My last teacher when I was between 55-60 years old realized that I was far enough along and knew enough that we basically worked and planned my projects together. That was great fun.

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

...
On the negative (for me) side, my learning style doesn't match with the quick-stop method of an hour long seminar. I need to start at the beginning and step through whatever the process is. Because of that, I might come away with some new ideas to explore on my own, but not with anything I could readily make use of as a result of having really comprehended what was being taught. This is reflection on me and my learning style, and not on any festival.

Over time, I have learned that it is important to know ourselves and our individual needs and learning styles. We can then set our expectations accordingly. As an example, if I were to go to a festival again, I would attend with the expectation of having fun meeting new people and having, however brief, exposure to ideas I might not experience otherwise. I would definitely not have expectations of really learning something I can put to practical use.

The above largely reflects my thinking and learning style as well.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by onkeltuka

I see that there's been lately several similar posts here, but I don't want to highjack other user's posts so here goes:

My problem with practicing is the lack of direction I'm experiencing. I take private lessons where I study W. Leavitt's "Modern Method for Guitar" (I'm on page 60 of vol. 1), at home I'm nibbling on bluesy stuff from Youtube and The Interwebs (a hopeless mess!), and I would also like to learn fingerstyle and DADGAD sounds so good as well...

I don't have a certain player and/or a style of playing that would be JUST the thing I want to emulate/become. And somehow I think that is my problem; I would just like to become a better player and musician, and that is such a broad idea that there is really not much "pointedness" in my ambitions and practice.

So... is this stuff like learning Chinese; just keep on banging at it and suddenly after three years it all starts coming together?

Yes. You're asking yourself to learn quite a bit of unnatural association, coordination and inner ear anticipation, etc. It comes down to routinely making your hands do what your ears hear. Piece of cake, eventually.