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Old 08-04-2016, 10:36 PM
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Default Instrumentals with multiple instruments?

I play multiple instruments and would like to make a recording of an instrumental with me playing all parts. Let's say the song is Foggy Mountain Breakdown and I want to use rhythm guitar, banjo, lead guitar, and mandolin. How would you go about layering this? Do you start with rhythm, or do you start with a lead instrument? Do you make a reference track? In real life, the rhythm guitar usually follows the lead, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be reversed here?
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:31 AM
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Whenever I solo record multiple instruments, I record a rhythm guitar first to establish the basic structure of the song. I then "build" the recording with whatever is carrying the melody (vocal or instrument) followed by bass, percussion, and any other instrument fills. I found that if I tried to add other instruments before the melody they often would end up competing for the same space and notes with the melody instrument, yeilding a very sloppy or crowded sound.
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:35 AM
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I'd start with a click track to keep everything in time. Then I'd do the rhythm, mandolin, then the banjo, then the lead. Then when it's all done mute the click track.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:19 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDigger View Post
I play multiple instruments and would like to make a recording of an instrumental with me playing all parts. Let's say the song is Foggy Mountain Breakdown and I want to use rhythm guitar, banjo, lead guitar, and mandolin. How would you go about layering this? Do you start with rhythm, or do you start with a lead instrument? Do you make a reference track? In real life, the rhythm guitar usually follows the lead, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be reversed here?
You can find information on how I multi-track on my "Simple Home Recording" page. The section entitled "A Method For Effective Solo Projects" details exactly what you are looking for. I took the website down a while back, but a lot of the relavant material is still available on the internet archive site:

http://web.archive.org/web/201603282...ecording1.html
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDigger View Post
I play multiple instruments and would like to make a recording of an instrumental with me playing all parts. Let's say the song is Foggy Mountain Breakdown and I want to use rhythm guitar, banjo, lead guitar, and mandolin. How would you go about layering this? Do you start with rhythm, or do you start with a lead instrument? Do you make a reference track? In real life, the rhythm guitar usually follows the lead, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be reversed here?
Hi BD
Some recordists record to click while others lay a scratch track - and all the subsequent recordings are then recorded to it. I don't find one better than the other.

A main arranging technique is to thin out your playing so it doesn't become muddied by the host of instruments. Watch a really good band (like James Taylor's backing musicians) and see how sparsely they play and how they compliment one another.

Unless you want it to sound like an instrumental free for all - in which case you just go full bore for the entire piece with every instrument in the bag and control.

Have a great time experimenting.



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Old 08-05-2016, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneDigger View Post
I play multiple instruments and would like to make a recording of an instrumental with me playing all parts. Let's say the song is Foggy Mountain Breakdown and I want to use rhythm guitar, banjo, lead guitar, and mandolin. How would you go about layering this? Do you start with rhythm, or do you start with a lead instrument? Do you make a reference track? In real life, the rhythm guitar usually follows the lead, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be reversed here?
As others have already said, I would also start with a click or if your DAW has it, a basic drum machine and I would play a possible scratch or keeper rhythm track . The next choices of sequence would depend entirely on your personal preference for featuring and augmenting. Any sequence would be viable depending personal goal
And I agree with Larry, in my experience the tendency at first is play too much of each of the instruments. So start out fairly sparse , you can always dub in more later.
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Old 08-05-2016, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Maniac View Post
I'd start with a click track to keep everything in time. Then I'd do the rhythm, mandolin, then the banjo, then the lead. Then when it's all done mute the click track.
That's kinda what I do. I will usually play a scratch rhythm track to a click track at a specific tempo which makes editing easier. Instead of an actual click, I usually use an old Alesis SR-16 drum machine sync'ed to the recorder. I'll use an appropriate kick drum pattern and I've found that eight note cabasas help me stay in time to the rhythm.
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Old 08-05-2016, 03:15 PM
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i usually go with drum track(can be muted later if not wanted), scratch rhythm guitar track, bass, other rhythm instruments and then melody instruments.

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Old 08-06-2016, 05:20 PM
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Click track or drum track has never worked for me personally.

I haven't done a ton of multi-tracking, but what I have done I've always felt like it was a much more natural outcome when I used a simple "rough track" as a guide, usually deleting it in the final mix.

The reason why I feel it's a more organic process is that I appreciate the minor subtle variations in timing as a song is performed in reaction to the actual material being performed. If you can strum a guitar and lay down a scratch vocal your performance will have a much more intimate feel than anything recorded to a rigid rhythm generated from a drum machine or click track.

The bottom line is try both methods and make the determination for yourself. YMMV.

To the OP; in any case if you're doing all the instruments DO think of your performance along the lines of what you would be hearing from a live performance. If you want something that's really polished it's best to chart out all the parts so you can stick to a road map while tracking.
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Old 08-14-2016, 08:09 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
If you can strum a guitar and lay down a scratch vocal your performance will have a much more intimate feel than anything recorded to a rigid rhythm generated from a drum machine or click track.
This is one of the biggest myths I see spread about recording!!!

I have a done a TON of multi-tracking, I can say without reservation, your problem with metronomes, is just that, your problem. I would venture to say 95% of the best multi-tracked songs recorded in professional studios were built around a click track. Stiffness associated with click tracks is usually due to the musician not being experienced enough to play along with one. It takes time to get accustomed to using a click, but like most skills, the result you get is in direct relation to the time put in to master it. One thing that I have found that helps with learning to subdivide the bpm as in playing half speed to a double speed tempo or vice versa. Learning to use a metronome is key if multi-tracking is something that you would like to get good at! A bonus is, if your working with other musicians remotely, you can drop their parts into your DAW with ease, and vice versa. So although you may not like metronomes, which is totally good, to recommend to others to not use one, and spreading the myth that using a metronome results in stiff feel, well, I just have to put up a counter opinion to that.

Last edited by rockabilly69; 08-15-2016 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 08-15-2016, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
This is one of the biggest myths I see spread about recording!!!

I have a done a TON of multi-tracking, I can say without reservation, your problem with metronomes, is just that, your problem. I would venture to say 95% of the best multi-tracked songs recorded in professional studios were built around a click track. Stiffness associated with click tracks is usually due to the musician not being experienced enough to play along with one. It takes time to get accustomed to using a click, but like most skills, the result you get is in direct relation to the time put in to master it. One thing that I have found that helps with learning to subdivide the bpm as in playing half speed to a double speed tempo or vice versa. Learning to use a metronome is key if multi-tracking is something that you would like to get good at! A bonus is, if your working with other musicians remotely, you can drop there parts into your DAW with ease, and vice versa. So although you may not like metronomes, which is totally good, to recommend to others to not use one, and spreading the myth that using a metronome results in stiff feel, well, I just have to put up a counter opinion to that.
No problem with a counter opinion. To each his own, and I'm not insisting that anyone use any particular method. Go back and re-read my post if you didn't understand.

As far as a polished over-all performance, I have observed a LOT of live music over my years and I really can't recall any case where the performer needed a click track in their ear to present a good performance.

If anyone really needs to develop skills with a click track to record effectively it might be better if they take up knitting as a hobby.

As I stated, try out both methods and see what works for you. No myth propagation necessary.
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Old 08-15-2016, 12:11 PM
Yamaha Man Yamaha Man is offline
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Well if you can't play along with a click track, then maybe it's you that needs to take up knitting.
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Old 08-15-2016, 12:25 PM
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nothing is written in stone. as with everything on the agf, it is all subjective and there is no need for snarkiness.

i recently recorded a friend who did not want a click/drum track. he wanted to start with banjo and i tried to talk him out of it and recommended that he might be better off laying down a scratch rhythm guitar part. well, we recorded the busy but ill-timed banjo and nothing afterward fit. we started from scratch with a drum track. he laid down his parts perfectly and we muted the drum track. everything was then fine.

always more than one way to do things.

where's the OP?

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Last edited by muscmp; 08-15-2016 at 12:27 PM. Reason: asking about the OP
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Old 08-15-2016, 12:45 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
As far as a polished over-all performance, I have observed a LOT of live music over my years and I really can't recall any case where the performer needed a click track in their ear to present a good performance.

If anyone really needs to develop skills with a click track to record effectively it might be better if they take up knitting as a hobby.
Well..there's of course Jerry Marotta, Manu, Ged Lynch, Carlos Vega (god rest his soul) and Vinnie Colaiuta all who have been known to play to a click track live. That's a stout group of drummers right there. Of course none of the mention drummers here "need" to have a click live but circumstances obviously dictate that sometimes they do.

One thing for sure however...I ain't gonna be the one who informs Manu he probably should take up knitting instead of the drums
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
No problem with a counter opinion. To each his own, and I'm not insisting that anyone use any particular method. Go back and re-read my post if you didn't understand.

As far as a polished over-all performance, I have observed a LOT of live music over my years and I really can't recall any case where the performer needed a click track in their ear to present a good performance.

If anyone really needs to develop skills with a click track to record effectively it might be better if they take up knitting as a hobby.

As I stated, try out both methods and see what works for you. No myth propagation necessary.
Whoa some clarification is in order... First "live music" is nothing like the multi track style recording, rockabily69 clearly stated he was referring to. And therefore is not remotely analogous. Perhaps you might go back and re read what he quoted and what he was talking about ?


And it is not really a matter of opinion, rocabilly69 is absolutely correct your statement below (as stated) is propagation of pure myth .

Quote:
If you can strum a guitar and lay down a scratch vocal your performance will have a much more intimate feel than anything recorded to a rigid rhythm generated from a drum machine or click track.
Now had you said something like "In my opinion" or " When I strum guitar and lay down a scratch vocal it will have a much more intimate feel then if I try to use a click or drum machine".... Then of course if would be valid as an opinion or personal preference.

As stated however it is simply a categorical falsehood. Because first and foremost the only thing that is actually "rigid" in a performance using a click or drum machine is the click or drum machine itself, the playing will have human variations of time just like a relly good scratch or live performance with no click (that isn't actually drifting way off time) .
And rocabilly69 is also correct whatever may not sound right about a performance "with a click" is due to the performer, not the click.



Where this statement is just a variation of a straw man argument
Quote:
If anyone really needs to develop skills with a click track to record effectively it might be better if they take up knitting as a hobby.
He of course never said you "need" to develop skill with a click to "record" effectively. He correctly observed that by far the the greatest percentage of "multi track recordings" are recorded based on a click.
Again you might re read if you don't understand
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