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  #31  
Old 05-19-2013, 06:56 PM
The Old Anglo The Old Anglo is offline
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Default All about the sound.

Picked up a Epi Hummingbird coupla weeks ago as I was cruising a local guitar center. I was Stunned by the sound,full,rich and loud. A perfect compliment to my Taylor 314ce so I bought it for $268.00. The hard case was extra but it was worth it. I the took it to my Luthier for a checkup,nothing wrong but he lowered the bridge a bit making barre chording easier for my old hands. I killed the original strings in two weeks of daily playing and replaced them with a set of light Gibson Masterbuilt Premuium {12-53} and this puppy just Sings!. Everything else is original,just a lucky find I guess.
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  #32  
Old 05-19-2013, 07:47 PM
dablues dablues is offline
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Originally Posted by mustache79 View Post
I'd rather not elaborate much or finger point, but I think (my opinion) in this thread it's a little absurd to say that an inexpensive guitar can't benefit from the same upgrades that people do to their fancy all solid wood guitars. I've owned very nice guitars and all laminate inexpensive guitars. I've always found that there are ways to improve the sound and playability of them regardless of their pedigree.

Like I suggested in a previous post, it doesn't have to cost a lot to upgrade the OP's guitar. For under $90 he can get a bone nut, saddle, bridge pins and Grover 18:1 tuning machines with a little know how and a bit of resourcefulness. To say it isn't worth it and to just save up for a different guitar wasn't what he was asking.

As for other threads, that's a different story and I'm not opening that can of worms too much. But, as suggested before, this place sometimes comes across as a rich man's forum.
The OP was asking for advice and suggesting that he spend $90 for "upgrades" on a $200 guitar doesn't seem like good advice to me...at the end of the day it will still sound pretty much like a $200 guitar.
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  #33  
Old 05-19-2013, 11:01 PM
jlipoth jlipoth is offline
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Originally Posted by dablues View Post
The OP was asking for advice and suggesting that he spend $90 for "upgrades" on a $200 guitar doesn't seem like good advice to me...at the end of the day it will still sound pretty much like a $200 guitar.
I'm not expecting any miracles, I just want to make my cheap guitar better. If there was a $300 round shoulder guitar with a bone saddle, better bridge pins, etc. in the guitar store I would have bought it. Instead, there was a $200 guitar available and I thought it sounded decent enough to buy and upgrade. Understand that wood, design AND removable pieces all make up the price of a guitar. I bet the biggest difference between a $200 and a $300 guitar isn't the wood or even the design....its the hardware Pieces installed...
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  #34  
Old 05-19-2013, 11:17 PM
jlipoth jlipoth is offline
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Originally Posted by Misty44 View Post
I was responding specifically to the OP's guitar in question: soild top, laminated b&s: I was not making a general statement regarding laminates vs all solid. (Kinda like the difference in frames of reference between Special and General Relativity, eh?)

As I also posted, I did some major surgery (scalloping some and adding new tone bars) on an old Sigma DM-4 (laminated b&s) and did in fact create a much better voice. So voices can be developed, but not by swapping only saddles, nuts, and pins.

So I stand by my initial response to the OP about his Epiphone AJ220.
Ok, let me clarify: You made a statement specific to solid top guitars with laminate back and sides, but the statement is true for just about any guitar. It's like saying "In my experiences, almost all Irish people have noses"..... while the statement is more or less true, noses aren't exclusive to people of Irish decent.

I must say, scalloping braces takes some talent - good on ya! I would expect that to make a much larger difference than a combination of smaller upgrades. If you really want a different voice, I still would expect to buy a different shape guitar or or buy the same shape with different wood in the body.
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  #35  
Old 05-19-2013, 11:39 PM
jlipoth jlipoth is offline
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Originally Posted by dablues View Post
I didn't realize that I was wasting my time but I think maybe you are. Nothing wrong with having an inexpensive "beater" guitar but I seriously doubt that swapping out the bridgepins, nut, saddle, etc is going to produce a noticeable improvement in the sound of your guitar and therefore seems like a waste of time and money.

You asked for opinions and I gave you mine. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Did you actually try what I am suggesting and decide it was a waste of time, or are you just supposing? Either way, thanks for wishing me luck! I've swapped for bone saddles before, and while there is nothing drastic about it, I definitely would not consider it a waste ($8 on ebay, 10min or less to sand and install in the middle of a string change). I already decided to upgrade parts of the guitar before posting and I have a bunch of parts from different builds/mods etc. that predates the post too. Parts always seem to find a home on some ones guitar around here eventually. I was curious what other peoples simple mods are in case there is something I haven't tried that I might want to.
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  #36  
Old 05-19-2013, 11:44 PM
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the biggest improvement in tone on my cheap guitars came from changing to the right strings. i was surprised how much improvement to a real beater martin silk & steel strings can make, and sometimes not the changes i expected. while they tend to be warm, mellow strings, they made my roque grand concert sound like a yamaha fg730 - go figure! and the other strings that i like on beaters - particularly those with muddy or tinny tone - are DR rare phosphor bronze strings. they add brilliance and sparkle, and tame boomy, muddy bass nicely.
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  #37  
Old 05-20-2013, 07:33 AM
mustache79 mustache79 is offline
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Originally Posted by dablues View Post
The OP was asking for advice and suggesting that he spend $90 for "upgrades" on a $200 guitar doesn't seem like good advice to me...at the end of the day it will still sound pretty much like a $200 guitar.
I don't understand this logic. So, do upgrades only work on expensive guitars? Expensive guitars usually have all the upgrades anyways, so by this logic upgrading any guitar seems pointless.

I don't believe the OP thinks his guitar will magically turn into a D28 by putting some work into it. But to say it isn't worth upgrading seems like bad advice to me. We all have our opinions.
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2013, 07:38 AM
Misty44 Misty44 is offline
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Originally Posted by jlipoth View Post
Ok, let me clarify: You made a statement specific to solid top guitars with laminate back and sides, but the statement is true for just about any guitar. It's like saying "In my experiences, almost all Irish people have noses"..... while the statement is more or less true, noses aren't exclusive to people of Irish decent.

I must say, scalloping braces takes some talent - good on ya! I would expect that to make a much larger difference than a combination of smaller upgrades. If you really want a different voice, I still would expect to buy a different shape guitar or or buy the same shape with different wood in the body.
I'm not sure where you're coming from in this regard. From your OP you stated: "...have started experimenting with parts to enhance/customize the tone. My goal is to help the guitar get a certain type of "Gibson" sound I've heard on higher end round shoulder guitars...Any recommendations?", to which I responded by essentially saying that the "voice" you hear now from your guitar is not going to change no matter what the composition of your saddle, nut, and pins, and further offered that the biggest tone changer you'll experience would come from trying different strings.

And of course that holds true for any/all guitar(s): there is no way to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, to turn something of inferior design and materials into something magnificent.

I also suggested that you have fun experimenting with these simple swaps, one can learn a lot from doing them. I'm a tinkerer by nature, and love modifying old "beaters" like my Sigma, especially from the inside out: great fun and I learned many things about the sonic attributes of wooden boxes.

But in the final analysis, if you desire a "'Gibson' sound I've heard on higher end round shoulder guitars," you'll have to seek one of those out to be truly satisfied. In the meantime, enjoy tinkering and swapping away!
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mustache79 View Post
I don't understand this logic. So, do upgrades only work on expensive guitars? Expensive guitars usually have all the upgrades anyways, so by this logic upgrading any guitar seems pointless.

I don't believe the OP thinks his guitar will magically turn into a D28 by putting some work into it. But to say it isn't worth upgrading seems like bad advice to me. We all have our opinions.
The point people are making is that upgrades such as described will have a minor, but perhaps noticeable change in sound. Putting $100 in upgrades on a $2000 guitar may be viable as the spend is in relation to the change. Putting the same $100 on a $200 is not so good since you are investing half the value in minor changes.

You can put "Z" rated Pirelli tires on your Hyundai and it will probably handle better but the cost far outstrips the benefit you can possibly get.
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  #40  
Old 05-20-2013, 08:39 AM
mustache79 mustache79 is offline
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The point people are making is that upgrades such as described will have a minor, but perhaps noticeable change in sound. Putting $100 in upgrades on a $2000 guitar may be viable as the spend is in relation to the change. Putting the same $100 on a $200 is not so good since you are investing half the value in minor changes.

You can put "Z" rated Pirelli tires on your Hyundai and it will probably handle better but the cost far outstrips the benefit you can possibly get.
I bought a B stock Alvarez solid top for $99. I invested $87 worth of upgrades into it. The guitar does sound and play better, especially after dropping in a bone saddle. It now stays in tune much better after adding better tuning machines, which accounted for $50 of the upgrade. Seems well worth it to me, regardless of the ratio of cost to value of the guitar.

My old Volkswagen might only be worth $1000 or so, but it's gonna cost me $300 to put some decent tires on it. I can't afford a new car, but I can afford tires.
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  #41  
Old 05-20-2013, 08:43 AM
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...You can put "Z" rated Pirelli tires on your Hyundai and it will probably handle better but the cost far outstrips the benefit you can possibly get.
And if my kid's driving it I have a bit more peace of mind.

I don't think upgrades such as saddles, bridge pins etc hurt anything. Nor do I consider them lipstick-on-a-pig, or wasted time/money.

A proper setup rarely hurts the playability of an instrument, but it often makes people want to play more.


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  #42  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:55 AM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Cool Simple upgrades for cheap guitars

I keep a lot of "extra" parts around, just for that purpose!!! Now, some might think that's "Lipstick on a Pig" but I prefer to think of it as, allow that pig to fly!

Admittedly I like to purchase my guitars for as little cash as humanly possible. Using that mindset, I have often picked up some pretty nice guitars for under $100 that usually (well, always) need some work. Surface scratches, loose bindings, bridges lifting or off completely, don't bother me a bit. But all to often these guitars require a wee bit extra love, so I might switch out the tuners or install a good quality set of strings. Maybe a decent fret dressing, if necessary. A bone saddle and nut are not that expensive, and even small cracks are easy to fix. A small price to pay to acquire what many would think is a very expensive and high quality instrument...and at least in some cases, they would be right!

After the upgrades, I have no trouble finding buyers willing to pay 2 or 3 times (sometimes more) what I invested. They are happy...I'm happy! What could be better?

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  #43  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:58 AM
jlipoth jlipoth is offline
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Originally Posted by Misty44 View Post
I'm not sure where you're coming from in this regard. From your OP you stated: "...have started experimenting with parts to enhance/customize the tone. My goal is to help the guitar get a certain type of "Gibson" sound I've heard on higher end round shoulder guitars...Any recommendations?", to which I responded by essentially saying that the "voice" you hear now from your guitar is not going to change no matter what the composition of your saddle, nut, and pins, and further offered that the biggest tone changer you'll experience would come from trying different strings.

And of course that holds true for any/all guitar(s): there is no way to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, to turn something of inferior design and materials into something magnificent.

I also suggested that you have fun experimenting with these simple swaps, one can learn a lot from doing them. I'm a tinkerer by nature, and love modifying old "beaters" like my Sigma, especially from the inside out: great fun and I learned many things about the sonic attributes of wooden boxes.

But in the final analysis, if you desire a "'Gibson' sound I've heard on higher end round shoulder guitars," you'll have to seek one of those out to be truly satisfied. In the meantime, enjoy tinkering and swapping away!
Thanks, am enjoying the swap outs! Its interesting to see what does and doesn't change about the sound. I don't need it to sound exactly like a Gibson. I don't wanna studio guitar, I want a guitar I won't hesitate to take anywhere. While nitro lacquer/all solid wood gives the best sound, but I'd take the trade off for a hardier guitar in this case. So far, I have to say that a bone saddle does mellow out the string attack. I also made sure that the saddle is a tighter fit. It helps to get more volume/ a fuller tone. I does sound closer to what I am trying to acheive ....

On the other hand, I suppose if I got a Gibson, I'd be asking about how to cure nitro finish/make it hardier, or sanding it down and refinishing it with poly. Still, I'd have to be careful (temperatures go from -35c in the winter to +30c in the summer). In my opinion, that would not be worth the effort.

Its important to understand the purpose of a guitar when figuring out whether a mod is worth it or not....
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  #44  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:07 PM
dablues dablues is offline
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Originally Posted by mustache79 View Post
I don't understand this logic. So, do upgrades only work on expensive guitars? Expensive guitars usually have all the upgrades anyways, so by this logic upgrading any guitar seems pointless.

I don't believe the OP thinks his guitar will magically turn into a D28 by putting some work into it. But to say it isn't worth upgrading seems like bad advice to me. We all have our opinions.
Yes expensive guitars usually do have bone nuts/saddles, etc but you're suggesting that he spend almost as much on upgrades as the guitar is worth! I don't understand your logic. Would you tell somebody to go out and buy a $900 set of tires to put on their $2000 car?

The OP stated that his goal was to get a "certain type of Gibson sound" that he says he has heard on higher end guitars. If you believe that putting a bone saddle and bridgepins on an all-laminate guitar would help him achieve that goal then so be it but I respectfully disagree.
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  #45  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:13 PM
dablues dablues is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHP View Post
The point people are making is that upgrades such as described will have a minor, but perhaps noticeable change in sound. Putting $100 in upgrades on a $2000 guitar may be viable as the spend is in relation to the change. Putting the same $100 on a $200 is not so good since you are investing half the value in minor changes.

You can put "Z" rated Pirelli tires on your Hyundai and it will probably handle better but the cost far outstrips the benefit you can possibly get.
Absolutely correct.

Last edited by dablues; 05-20-2013 at 12:25 PM.
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