52mm Nut.....what did I get into?

[joehempel]

Well, I've got an opportunity to play with some people (must audition first), but my Ibanez Koa Classical wasn't the "look" they wanted from a guitar....plus it isn't as big and doesn't have the big classical sound. It's got a 46mm nut width. And I guess is a "crossover" classical.

So I ended up trading it in and getting another Ibanez, with a Solid Spruce top rather than laminate, but it's got a rather thick neck. I'm finding I can't play like I normally do....this is going to kill my audition...is there a quick way to get things in shape?

I can barely get a D/F# using my thumb on the bass. I have a feeling I'm going to have to adjust the entire way I play...and I'm kind of worried about that.

[ewalling]

Many of us steel-stringers have come to grief with the standard classical neck and nut width. I was one and I experienced the same as you - my thumb wrap no longer worked! My solution was ulitmately to stick with crossovers. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Brent Hutto]

Are you playing classical repertoire?

If you're playing pop music I'm not sure why a classical guitar appearance and sound matters. If you're playing classical repertoire I'm not sure why you require wrapping your thumb onto the fretboard.

If classical guitarists did the thumb wrap they wouldn't use flat fretboards.

[lw216316]

no quick fix -
sounds like you rushed into buying another guitar without testing first.

It will be easier to find a crossover with the nut width you are used to
than a standard nylon string with a narrower than usual nut width.

There are SOME nylon string guitars with a nut smaller than 52 mm
but it will be hard for you to find one in a shop that you can test.

My Pavan classical has a 50 mm nut (an option)
You might even be able to order one with a smaller nut than that -
I'm not sure.

You could have a custom build with whatever you want I suppose
but that is not a quick fix and would be expensive.

- Larry

[WaddyT]

Yep, classical technique is missing the thumb wrap, totally. 52 mm is what I'd call a pretty standard size classical. Many have 54 and 55 mm nut widths, and string spacing in the 44 - 45 mm range. At 52, you probably have string width of 42 - 42.5 mm which is pretty normal.

[Classical Guy]

Hi Joe,

Guitars can be a bit like motorbikes - all more or less the same, but used for different things with a slightly refined riding style.
Hard to pull a wheelie on a Harley, or get your knee down.

If you want to play a classical guitar, and classical (type) music then you can't expect to use techniques which evolved from other styles and hardware.

For the first 10 years of my guitar playing I played folk, electric and jazz (all with the wrap-over thumb). When I took the plunge into classical playing I had to learn to read music and virtually undo and re-learn my technique for playing.

It is hard work - and sometimes you will feel you are going backwards - but persevere and you will be rewarded.

Crossovers work for a time - and at the end of the day it's your choice and will depend what you want out of it.

Good luck with the audition (maybe borrow a crossover to show what you can do).

Regards

Don

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by joehempel

Well, I've got an opportunity to play with some people (must audition first), but my Ibanez Koa Classical wasn't the "look" they wanted from a guitar(

well, i'd run from that opportunity pretty fast...anyone who judges a guitar by it's looks...yikes...

If you're gonna do it, there's a couple of things.

one: As others have said, the thumb wrap is gone. Classical guitars are made for classical technique. No thumb wrap.

Two: Get that guitar in classical position--on the left knee (if you're right handed) and get that neck up so you can see what you're doing (btw, other guitar players of the world--the amount of stress this position takes off your body is sooooooooooooo worth it)

Three: No classical is gonna sound like much unless you're using proper right hand technique, which includes fingernails. My guess is the reason your old guitar didn't deliver the sound had as much to do with that as it did with the guitar being a "crossover."

[ntotoro]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Two: Get that guitar in classical position--on the left knee (if you're right handed) and get that neck up so you can see what you're doing (btw, other guitar players of the world--the amount of stress this position takes off your body is sooooooooooooo worth it)

+1,000,000

Even when I play a "traditional" acoustic, my "form" is pretty much the same.

Takes so much stress off even just my fretting hand that it's uncanny.

Nick

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Classical Guy

If you want to play a classical guitar, and classical (type) music then you can't expect to use techniques which evolved from other styles and hardware.

... unless your name happens to be Duck Baker! Ever heard Mr. Baker whack out a celtic or ragtime number on a standard classical? And with the thumb wrap?

It's a joy to behold, but beyond me!

[Brent Hutto]

And for all I know Mr. Baker would wrap his thumb in lieu of a barre chord on Sor etude. But whacking out a number on a classical guitar is not something he would describe as playing classical repertoire.

So we still ought to let Joe tell us what kind of music he'll be expected to perform with this group.

[mr. beaumont]

I mean, no one's saying the thumb is completely off limits--In fact, I will use my thumb on a classical guitar when playing jazz and bossa (I have very long, thin fingers, so I can get away with it)

But for classical music, there's a way to do it, and there's a reason there's a way to do it--it sounds better. Finger pressure is simply much more even and thus intonation is better using proper technique.

[kirkham13]

+ 1 for the left kneee on a stool with the neck up! No thumb for me but I think thats a style thing-good to learn some new technique but keep the old as well-

[patrickgm60]

I can barely get a D/F# using my thumb on the bass. I have a feeling I'm going to have to adjust the entire way I play...and I'm kind of worried about that

You should decide whether that's a deal-breaker, or not. If so, get a guitar that you can use your thumb on.

Nut width is only part of the equation. Neck thickness (i.e. dimension perpendicular to the frets) and profile, as well as fingerboard radius, all figure in. My La Patrie has a 52mm nut (I think), yet, with a slight radius in the fingerboard and a fairly thin neck thickness, I'm able to do the D/F# with my thumb.

[Play2PraiseHim]

I agree with the poster that said why does the looks of your guitar matter. You traded your guitar that worked for you based on this judgement? Are you sure you want this job?

I would never buy a guitar that I could not play. And never for an job that I wasn't 100% sure I had. Run, don't walk and go get your Ibanez Koa back.

If you get the job and that absolutely require another guitar, look into a La Patrie, Takamine, or Cervantes Crossover.

As I always say, Play what YOU like, and LIKE what you play!

[cpmusic]

The problem I've found with most classicals aside of the large nut is that the necks tend to be kind of chunky. This is fine if you play in the classical style, but if you're a folkie it can be tough.

I don't know if this will help, but I have a Guild Mark I which has a very slim neck. If Guild is building their new GAD series classicals with the same neck dimensions, I expect you'll find it more comfortable...assuming you can find one, of course.

The other alternative, as noted, is to get your koa guitar back or find a more "normal" looking crossover.