New Waves plug in Andrew Scheps " Parallel Particles"

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Seems you are saying this plugin sends to the bus two data streams, one data stream that it has processed with various effects, and one data stream of the original, untouched, data stream that entered the plugin. If that is the case, you are mistaken about how this plugin works, and even if it did do that the result would have no value (the data would be immediately combined on the bus).

This plugin performs its parallel processes within the plugin's internal software (by mixing in the raw data back in with the data is has already processed). The output is that mixed result. No separate raw data stream is output.

The plugin internally parallel processes, but the output is a single data stream of the summed result of process data with the original data. It is the same case with, for example, the reverb wet/dry plugins.

If this plugin is in line with other data manipulation (other plugins, external hardware) the plugin's output is part of a serial data manipulation chain (just like reverbs, etc. are).

Actually Rick I am not saying that at all. I stated I do not know exactly how this plugin works, I am not a computer programer and do not write algorithmic code . What I was saying in reply to your post, is that when the typical plugin with a wet/ dry mix knob, is placed directly on the track that it is processing, it is considered to be serial processing, because the signal that is hitting the mix bus is processed . And that since "typically" only when you place that plugin on a separate track, and send audio to that track, you then have the 100% unprocessed audio from the audio track hitting the mix bus and you have the processed audio from the track with the plugin on it hitting the mix bus , then it is considered to be parallel processing ,and then yes indeed two separate audio streams are hitting the mix bus . As to whether or not that makes a discernible difference in the sound coming off the mix bus is actually what we discussed before and is a matter of personal opinion that we differer on.

I also said that what Joseph was saying about a recent development in some compressor plugins internal mixer programing, as being perhaps what is involved with this plugin and that made sense to me.


So it seems like what you are saying is you know exactly how the algorithm for this plug works, and that (when placed directly on the track) is no different than any other plugin with a wet / dry mix feature . And perhaps that is the case , I do not possess that level of expertise say differently. But then that would seem to be essentially saying one, it is not a recent development, and two, that Mr Scheps is basically deceiving the public about the plug in .

[rick-slo]

Never said I knew the algorithmic codes used, though the wet and dry ratios are most probably set by the respective volume levels of each when combined.

Mr. Scheps is not deceiving the public. Neither Mr. Scheps in his videos, or Waves in their literature about the plugin, say two separate output streams are hitting the bus. Rather the opposite is indicated in that the routing advantage being promoted for this plugin is the convenience and advantage of this plugin doing the parallel processing internally.

However what really matters is if one likes the results achievable with the plugin.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by ukejon

Can you all put some of this into plain English for us non-techies and maybe explain how it might apply (or not) to a solo acoustic recording with two mics? Thanks.

Seems somewhat similar in overall aural effect to what the BBE Sonic Stomp does to my live signal (typically a K&K Pure Mini into an AER 60/2 amp) although I realize that it is rather different processes being applied.

I'll give it shot. As I understand it , this plugin functions some what like a multi band compressor and a EQ controlled synth type functions.

It is pre programed as to where in frequency range these effects are taking place. Two selections for the compressor like functions and two selections for the EQ synth.

What it "could do" for solo guitar is :
Bring forward or highlight the frequencies that the compressor type function targets

And the synth function could highlight and possibly enhance the frequency ranges it controls .

Because it is pre programed and its controlls are so basic, it allows the user to focus only on what each of the four functions is doing to the sound either separately or in any combinations. As opposed to having to understand all the multiple settings that would be involved if you were to setup the same thing using compressors EQ's and synths.
This of course a two edged sword in that the good news is you can focus on the sound of these functions as opposed the the multitude of settings involved.
The bad news is you are stuck with the preprogramed selections and do not have the precise control that would be available if you were to set up the chains
like Joseph was describing .

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Never said I knew the algorithmic codes used, though the wet and dry ratios are most probably set by the respective volume levels of each when combined.

Mr. Scheps is not deceiving the public. Neither Mr. Scheps in his videos, or Waves in their literature about the plugin, say two separate output streams are hitting the bus. Rather the opposite is indicated in that the routing advantage being promoted for this plugin is the convenience and advantage of this plugin doing the parallel processing internally.

However what really matters is if one likes the results achievable with the plugin.

To my mind if in fact there is not "something" different (related to definition of parallel processing ) in what hits the mix bus between this plug and the typical reverb with the wet/dry knob, then calling it parallel and emphasizing it's parallel processing properties as he does in the vids, seems deceptive.
But yes you are correct and I agree for certain it is really about how it sounds in the end.

[Joseph Hanna]

I think in reality you're both correct. The real issue here for me (and I mentioned it in passing earlier) is the math involved in a compressor or exciter "mixing" parallel streams at the output stage on its own internal bus. When I was at Digidesign we were constantly warned that a math problem at the plug-in stage, particularly overs, was an identifiable sonic problem. The results of 32-bit floating point master sum vs 64 bit master sum has been discussed ad nauseam and till the cows came home but I am however certain the math can have a palpable effect on the sonics of a track or a mix.

It's in the end perhaps a matter of semantics but much more importantly the idea of parallel processing is important and I would think not only of interest to many here but a technique that might possibly wind up in everyone's everyday toolbox of tricks.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

The real issue here for me (and I mentioned it in passing earlier) is the math involved in a compressor or exciter "mixing" parallel streams at the output stage on its own internal bus.

They are all internal plugin calculations. I would not call it an internal bus per say. The output stage is the mixed product of whatever choices were made in the plugin's settings. There are not any brand new fundamental routing processes with this plugin, it just is perhaps a convenient new combination of processes, sort of a group of synthesizer/equalizer like items they call Sub, Air, Bite, and Thick that can be applied individually or together while maintaining the dry signal allowing you to set the percentages of wet and dry you wish to use for the output.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

They are all internal plugin calculations. I would not call it an internal bus per say. The output stage is the mixed product of whatever choices were made in the plugin's settings. There are not any brand new fundamental routing processes with this plugin, it just is perhaps a convenient new combination of processes, sort of a group of synthesizer/equalizer like items they call Sub, Air, Bite, and Thick that can be applied individually or together while maintaining the dry signal allowing you to set the percentages of wet and dry you wish to use for the output.

Ah yes we're never gonna come to a practical conclusion that helps others with their day in and day out mixing with this discussion I'm thinking anything I might add you'd disagree with and that ain't helpin' nobody

I would however add that the topic of parallel processing is something many here could (and would) benefit from. Semantics are something I find difficult to translate to pragmatic practices. I was, in the end, just trying to raise folks awareness to another mixing tool in the mixing tool toolbox.

I cry uncle! You are correct!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

Ah yes we're never gonna come to a practical conclusion that helps others with their day in and day out mixing with this discussion I'm thinking anything I might add you'd disagree with and that ain't helpin' nobody

I would however add that the topic of parallel processing is something many here could (and would) benefit from. Semantics are something I find difficult to translate to pragmatic practices. I was, in the end, just trying to raise folks awareness to another mixing tool in the mixing tool toolbox.

I cry uncle! You are correct!

Agree. I'm enough of a computer nerd to have been bothered by KevWind's earlier analysis of how the plugin works, but it is a side issue. What counts is whether it can help make things sound the way you want them to.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

I would however add that the topic of parallel processing is something many here could (and would) benefit from. Semantics are something I find difficult to translate to pragmatic practices. I was, in the end, just trying to raise folks awareness to another mixing tool in the mixing tool toolbox.

I agree the potential available from parallel processing is pretty interesting. I have used parallel compression on things like kick drums but haven't as of yet on guitar. But I will start experimenting when I get back to my studio in the fall.
And I use it almost exclusively for time domain FX