ES signal choices

DoryDavis · #1 08-30-2015, 12:11 PM

For those using the low impedance/trs method of hooking up and amplifying their Taylors, other than plugging into the mic section of your acoustic amp, or straight into the PA, what choices are out there for preamps, effects loops etc.. I realize the K4 is such a box. I guess the A3 is too, if one were to use the mic input. Are there other options.
I am running a 412 into an AER Alpha. It sounds good, but I'd like to maintain what I perceive to be the slightly more "hi fi" sound I'm getting, but go through a pedal that allows for a mute, a second guitar (with normal 1/4" jack), eq, effects or effects loop, tuner out. Thanks for any ideas.

Lawliet · #2 08-31-2015, 01:06 AM

maybe a Radial PZ-Pre?

pieterh · #3 08-31-2015, 05:19 AM

The Pz-pre gives you some of what you are looking for (and a lot you haven't mentioned). One of the best things about the Pz-pre is that it is two channel with separate volume levels (and impedance matching) for each channel. It has two balanced outputs, one pre-eq, one post-eq. It also has tuner and amp outputs (on tele jacks) and the essential (in my opinion) low cut, polarity inverse and notch filter options.

What it doesn't have is a balanced input. Let's face it, the Taylor ES1.X is one of the only guitar systems offering a balanced signal straight from the guitar, so there hasn't been a huge need for preamps with a balanced input unless they are designed from the beginning to accept microphones. I love my Pz-pre but even it isn't enough to tame the ES1's mid-heavy characteristics.

You might want to look into Dtar Solstice which is a 2 channel preamp with xlr inputs and indepndant eq on each channel. I don't know about availability as I understand the brand is being amalgamated into the Seymour Duncan brands but it is still available on Thomann for example.

Herb Hunter · #4 08-31-2015, 07:29 AM

By attaching an inexpensive, passive impedance transformer to the XLR end of the cable, you would be able to send the full output of your guitar to any unbalanced, high-impedance jack of an effects device, preamplifier or the instrument input of a typical amplifier. In addition to matching impedance, the device converts the guitar’s balanced output to an unbalanced one.

http://www.radioshack.com/a3f-xlr-ja...r/2740016.html

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure/A9...Transformer.gc

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Hosa/XLR...Transformer.gc

DoryDavis · #5 08-31-2015, 07:33 AM

Thanks for the advice on the D-Tar, and on the Radial.
On the D-Tar, with the balanced inputs. I see one on Reverb for 329.00. This is a basic question, please forgive me. How would I get the most benefit of this preamp?
Presently, (I am in an instrumental guitar duo), we both run our ES1 Taylors into our amps, low impedance. That is into the mic channels, AER and Fishman are the two amps. Then we run XLR mic level to a QSC K* from the Fishman, and 1/4" LINE out from the AER (as the QSC only has one channel with a pre for mic level input, AND because the XLR out on the AER does not carry the reverb I use within the amp).
Would I hook this D-Tar up, trs from guitar to D-Tar, and then xlr out of the D-tar to xlr in to my amp, then as we have it?
Maybe I am thinking of this wrong. The option would be get a reverb pedal/box to put int the D-Tar loop. Then run 1/4" from the D-tar to the AER, and xlr to the QSC. Wait that doesn't work, unless the xlr out is line level, I couldn't find if it was or not?
Any thoughts? THANKS for this advice.

pieterh · #6 08-31-2015, 08:04 AM

Maybe I didn't quite get what you are after.

Yes, the Taylor TRS to XLR cable into one of the XLR inputs on the Solstice. The other guitar you were talking about would then connect using a regular tele cable to the other input (the inputs are dual XLR/tele so don't be put off there!).

Odd that the AER doesn't send its own reverb out the XLR output, but maybe the designers were thinking of the AER as either a stand alone amp (where the amp is what the audience hears) or a stage monitor (in which case you decide what YOU want to hear but the signal sent to a sound desk and engineer is pre-eq and effects).

It may be that what you actually need is a small mixer, if I read between the lines correctly; it seems that part of the issue is that you are two musicians using one powered speaker as your main sound, am I right? And even if you had two QSCs I would still recommend a little mixer - of course, that is in effect what both the Radial Pz-pre and D-tar Solstice are, but they are 2-channel in, one-out. The Radial at least can be set to blend the two inputs so that both guitars (or both pickups in the case of a dual source guitar) are summed to the outputs. I am not sure about the Solstice.

MikeBmusic · #7 08-31-2015, 09:11 AM

I've used the TRS to XLR with impedance transformer (like Herb mentions) to my PZ Pre and the sound was equivalent to plugging straight into the board (with the exception of volume, easily tweaked with the PZ Pre's input control).

briggleman · #8 08-31-2015, 02:09 PM

This is what I use:

Check it out on the Pigtronix site. See if it gets you where you need to be. I use it because I can plug my TRS/XLR cable straight in and not worry about impedance imbalances anywhere in the chain. If I use a regular TS/TS cable, same thing, no worries about too much signal or not enough. However, 100% of the time I use the XLR input on the Keymaster, my standard effects including my inline tuner with mute go through loop 1. Loop two can be used for a lot of different things but I mostly use it to add a effect pedal not normally on my pedal board or to send out an additional signal to another mixer board or amp.

Brad

DoryDavis · #9 08-31-2015, 03:11 PM

Thanks everybody, I am carefully reading these responses, I appreciate all the thought and even pics posted. Let me check these all out.
Brad pointed out yet another box that would make converting the low impedance signal to unbalanced, (this Pigtronix plus the K4 and the Solstice).

However if there is no loss of signal by converting, then that opens up the world of Radial, etc...

My question is this. If I hook up my Taylor with Es-1, low impedance, to any of these quality preamps, would I hear a difference coming out of my on stage amp? Or is this a difference made mostly in what runs to the PA?

Thanks very much!!!

Herb Hunter · #10 08-31-2015, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoryDavis

Thanks everybody, I am carefully reading these responses, I appreciate all the thought and even pics posted. Let me check these all out.
Brad pointed out yet another box that would make converting the low impedance signal to unbalanced, (this Pigtronix plus the K4 and the Solstice).

However if there is no loss of signal by converting, then that opens up the world of Radial, etc...

My question is this. If I hook up my Taylor with Es-1, low impedance, to any of these quality preamps, would I hear a difference coming out of my on stage amp? Or is this a difference made mostly in what runs to the PA?

Thanks very much!!!

I don’t think I quite understand what you are trying to achieve so my question is given that your guitar has a built-in preamp, why do you want to add a second preamp between it and the PA? Doing so adds noise and distortion, though the distortion may not be readily audible. If you find the tone controls of the PA and the guitar offer insufficient flexibility to achieve the sound you want, then it makes sense to add a preamp with a built-in equalizer that affords additional sound tailoring but I see some guitarists needlessly adding noise to their signal chain.

Anyway, in theory, any changes to the guitar’s amplified sound that you achieve by adding devices to your signal change will be heard both through the PA and your stage amplifier. In practice the difference may be more noticeable in one than the other but it is a safe bet you’ll hear a difference both through the PA and the amp.

Lawliet · #11 08-31-2015, 04:35 PM

I think I should also mention the red-eye twin.

DoryDavis · #12 09-01-2015, 04:03 AM

Again, thanks for these replies. On the gain stages/extra pre amp. I agree, it makes little sense. Like many people I follow Tommy Emmanuel. I am 99% sure I have this right: He runs his active on board preamp from his Maton at 10, both the mic and the UST. That's a massive signal in itself. Then through a tuner, then into an AER Colourizer. That's the second preamp. From there his signal goes to his AER amp, AND directly form the Colourizer to the PA. Finally, from the AER, another line is run to the PA.
By the time it hits the AER his signal has gone through 3 preamps.

My duo has been successful, but I want more out of my Taylor/AER combination. No matter how I eq it, it sounds a bit harsh and thin to my ears. Just trying to get a sound I am really inspired by. Thanks again everybody.

Andy Howell · #13 09-01-2015, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoryDavis

Again, thanks for these replies. On the gain stages/extra pre amp. I agree, it makes little sense. Like many people I follow Tommy Emmanuel. I am 99% sure I have this right: He runs his active on board preamp from his Maton at 10, both the mic and the UST. That's a massive signal in itself. Then through a tuner, then into an AER Colourizer. That's the second preamp. From there his signal goes to his AER amp, AND directly form the Colourizer to the PA. Finally, from the AER, another line is run to the PA.
By the time it hits the AER his signal has gone through 3 preamps.

My duo has been successful, but I want more out of my Taylor/AER combination. No matter how I eq it, it sounds a bit harsh and thin to my ears. Just trying to get a sound I am really inspired by. Thanks again everybody.

I get a good sound out of my AER. I run through a Headway preamp which has a 5 band eq (which can be very subtle). The AER is always set flat.

I played last week at a session where my preamp single went though somebody else's AER. It sounded tin and thin but I didn't get a chance to see what EQ the guy had put onto the Amp itself.

DoryDavis · #14 09-01-2015, 02:12 PM

Thanks again everybody. If anyone is still interested or even awake as this thread plays out, I just came across a great deal on a K4. Would this warm up my sound noticeably do you think?

Herb Hunter · #15 09-01-2015, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoryDavis

Thanks again everybody. If anyone is still interested or even awake as this thread plays out, I just came across a great deal on a K4. Would this warm up my sound noticeably do you think?

I think the probability is greater than with many other equalizers as it was specifically designed to add greater tonal shaping capability to the Expression System. Furthermore, its preamp circuitry is superior to many other acoustic guitar equalizers and you won’t need an impedance transformer.