Not acoustic enough

[playme]

Hello all thanks for reading this post...

I have a Martin clone, handmade out of coco and sitka spruce and sounds beautiful. I have an Anthem in box pickup and a Ultrasound DS3 amp that I have had for years. I have to say that I am not impressed with the quality reproduction of the guitars 'acoustic sound' through this setup.

My picking and playing has improved and I'm becoming more critical of what I want to hear out of my instrument and the equipment that reproduces its sound. I'd like to start playing out again this winter but have come to the point in my life where I refuse to play on mediocre equipment. I don't have a fortune to spend but will spend whatever it takes to make my guitar sound as close as possible to the original acoustic sound.

I would appreciate any advise from critical players on equipment they use to help make their guitar sound as they should? (I haven't even mention vocals yet)

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by playme

Hello all thanks for reading this post...

I have a Martin clone, handmade out of coco and sitka spruce and sounds beautiful. I have an Anthem in box pickup and a Ultrasound DS3 amp that I have had for years. I have to say that I am not impressed with the quality reproduction of the guitars 'acoustic sound' through this setup.

My picking and playing has improved and I'm becoming more critical of what I want to hear out of my instrument and the equipment that reproduces its sound. I'd like to start playing out again this winter but have come to the point in my life where I refuse to play on mediocre equipment. I don't have a fortune to spend but will spend whatever it takes to make my guitar sound as close as possible to the original acoustic sound.

I would appreciate any advise from critical players on equipment they use to help make their guitar sound as they should? (I haven't even mention vocals yet)

What is the make and model of your guitar?

The Anthem should give you a decent amplified tone if it's installed correctly and adjusted correctly at the amp.

Although I don't have any experience with the Ultrasound DS-3 amp, from its specs, it would appear to be a decent amp.

Please give us more information on what you don't like about your current setup.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by playme

Hello all thanks for reading this post...

I have a Martin clone, handmade out of coco and sitka spruce and sounds beautiful. I have an Anthem in box pickup and a Ultrasound DS3 amp that I have had for years. I have to say that I am not impressed with the quality reproduction of the guitars 'acoustic sound' through this setup.

My picking and playing has improved and I'm becoming more critical of what I want to hear out of my instrument and the equipment that reproduces its sound. I'd like to start playing out again this winter but have come to the point in my life where I refuse to play on mediocre equipment. I don't have a fortune to spend but will spend whatever it takes to make my guitar sound as close as possible to the original acoustic sound.

I would appreciate any advise from critical players on equipment they use to help make their guitar sound as they should? (I haven't even mention vocals yet)

A few thoughts and questions:

1) When you say your guitar "sounds beautiful", is that from the perspective of you listening to it (i) from above and behind (while you are playing it), (ii) from out in front (when someone else is playing it) or (iii) after it is recorded listening through monitor speakers?

2) An Anthem pickup is a boundary microphone placed inside the guitar. Many folks have had success with it, others not so much. I suspect this is due to two things. First, it appears that in many cases sufficient versatile eq filters are needed to adjust the tone to make it acceptable and (ii) some guitars don't do well amplified with an internal mic as the only source regardless of how versatile the available eq is. Your Ultrasound amp has rudimentary eq and may not be capable of doing item #(i). Dunno about your guitar regarding Item #(ii).

3) Although there has been great strides in recent years in development of pickups and acoustic guitar sound reinforcement products (i.e., amps and the like), much at reasonable prices, the old adage "you get what you pay for" is still front and center IMHO. If you want a high end sound capable of being used in a variety of venues, you will need to spend the money.

4) Since you are budget conscious, you will have to find a balance between cost and performance. That, and I would suggest that you spend the time to learn intimately how to use whatever gear you use.

5) The closest thing to an unplugged sound (for a guitar) is one or two excellent external mics running through an excellent signal chain (i.e., preamp, eq, power amp and speakers). If the venues you intend to play at can't handle that setup (due to feedback concerns, ambient nose, wind, etc.) then you have to fall back to pickups of some sort, or perhaps a pickup and a mic. Much can be done with two sources.

6) What venues do you intend to play at?

7) It appears that vocals will be an integral part of your performance. Don't treat that as an afterthought.

[playme]

Ok great questions as these help me better define what I am looking for.

Guitar - My guitar is custom built dreadnaught which I built myself guitar #7. Thin back and top very bright but resounding and bassy as well I guess is what I would say. Lot’s of sustain. I can play a bass note and hear the sustain while I play melody on the trebles. Hard to describe as I’m sure you can appreciate. Very classic folk rock sound. The guitar is one of the best I have ever heard from a players point of view. Not really sure how it sounds to an audience. I have never recorded the guitar because I’m back to the same problem of acoustics.

- I know nothing about electronics nor do I wish to learn. I buy Toyota trucks because they are built well and comfortable. I bought an Anthem only because of the opinions I’ve heard on this forum nothing else. Lot’s of great players here so I thought I’d give it a try. Do not know if the lack of quality sound is from pickup or amp. The sound is “ok”. Most would likely accept it. I’m old now and do not want to settle for ‘acceptable’.

- I’m not sure what high end means anymore. I can buy a small, portable speaker today for listening to music on my deck with bluetooth that blows the socks off speakers that were 4 times the cost 20 years ago. I just have not clue and frankly never have when it comes to amplification… but I do KNOW what sounds good.

- I am not a professional earning a living off my music so I have to be somewhat conscious of cost. With the cost of reproductive technology falling precipitately over the last several years my instinct tells me nows the time to get high quality for very reasonable prices but maybe I’m wrong. If I was to hazard a guess I would say I could put together a decent system with vocals for 3K - 5K to play small venues - 50 people.

- I thought about external microphones but jeesh where do you start? Also I like to move around a bit and don’t want to be hindered by ‘proximity’ unless I HAVE to.

- I live in Cincinnati but do not know if there are any professionals in this area that help build a system that will work for someones personal style, desires and taste of music playing and delivery.

Thanks for your responses and I hope this additional information will help give you a clearer idea of what I am looking for.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by playme

...
- I know nothing about electronics nor do I wish to learn.
...

That's going to be a major problem for you.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by playme

- I know nothing about electronics nor do I wish to learn.

I was in the same boat when I re-entered public performance. Unfortunately, as the great guitarist Eric Skye says, "Amplification is where the fun begins with electric guitars, and, the fun ENDS with acoustic guitars."

And the way most people learn is exactly how you have already started to learn, do some research, then try something. Then, when you don't like it, try something else.

Above all, come to this forum and ask lots of questions. That is what I did, and, after a few false starts, I am VERY happy with my signal chain.

Best of luck,

Steve

[krisls]

I have a custom built 000 guitar. When I decided to put a pick up in I asked the Luthier, he said either an Anthem or a K&K. I went K&K, minimal change.

There is no reason at all barring a very poor install that you cannot get good sound from that pickup. That said... every element of an amplification chain is a compromise on one level or another. You have to decide what works for you.

At the least you need some idea of EQ and gain staging. Youtube is your friend. Also ask here.. lots of very knowledgeable people.

I understand the moving thing too, Mics are probably best, but only if you are disciplined and stay put, seated or standing. Pickups give flexibility, but they will never match a great Mic. close, but not quite.

So you need to do a bit of work and then come back here and go.. question guys...

Good luck

Kris

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

I was in the same boat when I re-entered public performance. Unfortunately, as the great guitarist Eric Skye says, "Amplification is where the fun begins with electric guitars, and, the fun ENDS with acoustic guitars."

And the way most people learn is exactly how you have already started to learn, do some research, then try something. Then, when you don't like it, try something else.

Above all, come to this forum and ask lots of questions. That is what I did, and, after a few false starts, I am VERY happy with my signal chain.

Best of luck,

Steve

I agree with Eric's comment. No matter how sophisticated bugs and amps are - as soon as you electrify an acoustic - it becomes an electric.
You might be able to make an amplified sound - a bit li an acoustic - not yours - just any old acoustic, but the only way to really increase the volume of an acoustic guitar its to put a good microphone in front of it an run the signal into a very good p.a. system.

[RockerDuck]

A long time ago, 45 yrs., I was not happy with my guitar sound, talked to pro's, and bought better guitars and amps. Yes, I figured out my sound, but, are you making yourself happy or your audience. You see, my thinking changed to who I was entertaining was more important than my being critical of myself/sound. The audience wants entertainment.

[playme]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

That's going to be a major problem for you.

Thanks for your comment however I might just say that I do not have to be an electrician to know whether my TV is working or a mechanic to know whether my cars is running well or a painter to appreciate a fine, delicate artistic application. Meaning - there are people who know these things and I prefer to find them and pay for their knowledge instead of learning on my own what is necessary to make a good decision.

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

I was in the same boat when I re-entered public performance. Unfortunately, as the great guitarist Eric Skye says, "Amplification is where the fun begins with electric guitars, and, the fun ENDS with acoustic guitars."

And the way most people learn is exactly how you have already started to learn, do some research, then try something. Then, when you don't like it, try something else.

Above all, come to this forum and ask lots of questions. That is what I did, and, after a few false starts, I am VERY happy with my signal chain.

Best of luck,

Steve

I'll remember that comment thanks. If you care to share Steve, I'd be interested in know your chain from start to completion.

Originally Posted by krisls

I have a custom built 000 guitar. When I decided to put a pick up in I asked the Luthier, he said either an Anthem or a K&K. I went K&K, minimal change.

There is no reason at all barring a very poor install that you cannot get good sound from that pickup. That said... every element of an amplification chain is a compromise on one level or another. You have to decide what works for you.

At the least you need some idea of EQ and gain staging. Youtube is your friend. Also ask here.. lots of very knowledgeable people.

I understand the moving thing too, Mics are probably best, but only if you are disciplined and stay put, seated or standing. Pickups give flexibility, but they will never match a great Mic. close, but not quite.

So you need to do a bit of work and then come back here and go.. question guys...

Good luck

Kris

I haven't paid much attention to amplification over the past 15 years and just 'assumed' that the difficulties of electrical amplification of acoustics had been overcome by the incredible technology we find around us. That's a good point and I guess I can assume then, that almost all recordings that I hear of excellent acoustic guitar picking is coming from a mic in a studio.

Having said that I remember watching recently a Lindsey Buckingham live concert in which he performed Never Goin Back Again and Big Love on his acoustic. The sound was classic Buckingham and not as deep and full as I like in an acoustic sound but never the less was excellent. I don't believe we was using a mic either but wasn't really paying attention to his set-up and his performance was excellent.

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I agree with Eric's comment. No matter how sophisticated bugs and amps are - as soon as you electrify an acoustic - it becomes an electric.
You might be able to make an amplified sound - a bit li an acoustic - not yours - just any old acoustic, but the only way to really increase the volume of an acoustic guitar its to put a good microphone in front of it an run the signal into a very good p.a. system.

Thanks Silly I think I'm getting the picture.

Originally Posted by RockerDuck

A long time ago, 45 yrs., I was not happy with my guitar sound, talked to pro's, and bought better guitars and amps. Yes, I figured out my sound, but, are you making yourself happy or your audience. You see, my thinking changed to who I was entertaining was more important than my being critical of myself/sound. The audience wants entertainment.

If I'm happy with my sound then I can focus entirely on my performance I'll have more confidence in the entertainment and connection I can achieve with my audience. Good performance is great but good performance with excellent acoustic sound will 'knock it out of the park' so to speak. We can always do better.

Thanks everyone for your comments!

[lmacmil]

Originally Posted by RockerDuck

You see, my thinking changed to who I was entertaining was more important than my being critical of myself/sound. The audience wants entertainment.

And there is the crux of the matter. I can guarantee to the OP, if your audience enjoys your performance and your music, they won't be thinking about (and won't really care) what the guitar sounds like as long as it sounds like an acoustic guitar. Most don't know about pickups, woods, strings, amplifiers, etc. They just want to hear music that's familiar to them, played with enthusiasm.

[steelvibe]

First off, welcome to the forum!

You already have some great advice here- what I love is that people are not telling you "this is what I do and so should you". There are a lot of options compared to years ago and acoustic amplification, while tricky, can sound very good nowadays. What you will find is that most of us, like you, are extremely picky about our amplified sound- heck there is a sub-forum dedicated to it!

With a willingness to spend some money and to learn a little about electronics you will go far. I think the best advice that I've read here and heard with my own ears (knowing what some of my favorite solo guitarists use live), is the dual-source approach. That part can be tricky in pairing up what sources you choose, and I would offer my opinion here- a quality outboard preamp that you can adjust and blend the signals is essential. Just like tone is subjective to all of us, so is live tone. You will have to take the time to find out what you really like. Maybe you will get really lucky and find your way much quicker (and easier on wallet) than most of us here

[6L6]

Start by installing a K&K Pure Mini pickup.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by playme

Having said that I remember watching recently a Lindsey Buckingham live concert in which he performed Never Goin Back Again and Big Love on his acoustic. The sound was classic Buckingham and not as deep and full as I like in an acoustic sound but never the less was excellent. I don't believe we was using a mic either but wasn't really paying attention to his set-up and his performance was excellent.

Lindsey Buckingham uses a simple Fishman Matrix Undersaddle with the barn door controls on the side. He runs his acoustics through a number of delays and reverb effects units. I love the tone he gets but it's far from natural. He just has his own unique tone that works, even if it sounds nothing like an acoustic.

With that said, I am surprised that you are unhappy with the Anthem as it should be far more natural than what Buckingham uses.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by lmacmil

And there is the crux of the matter. I can guarantee to the OP, if your audience enjoys your performance and your music, they won't be thinking about (and won't really care) what the guitar sounds like as long as it sounds like an acoustic guitar. Most don't know about pickups, woods, strings, amplifiers, etc. They just want to hear music that's familiar to them, played with enthusiasm.

This is very true. However, I need to be happy with my tone so that's the reason why most of us spend so much time finding the best sound possible.