Scales?! (I know...)

[Matt.S]

Hopefully I don't catch too many "SEARCH" posts here. I also am not sure how to write this thread without rambling... Anyway this seems to be something that maybe every individual needs to ask their own way to find what 'clicks'. I've watched numerous YouTube videos - likely only to a detriment as each person has "their way" or they generally touch the same points and it never comes full circle. I have also tried to learn scales through an online teacher at Blues Guitar Institute but it's like he just stops or tells you to do it in every key but only showing one (C or A generally).

I now started to read about scales which does help understand them in a literal sense: Alphabet runs ABCDEFG; B and E don't have sharps so that means directly to the next letter; if you go back it's a flat instead (who came up with that?); for seemingly all the scales there is a different interval (awesome when you are on one string, not awesome when you have to say "C Major scale, okay I need to go from C to D that would be 2 frets, a whole step or tone, alright now where is D on the fret board here..." so that's why I assume there's patterns or positions? Then there's the CAGED method but once again it's all based on root, from there I guess you walk up C shape, A shape, etc. etc.?

I've practiced some patterns, but I don't know what I've memorized necessarily. I have planned to start calling out the notes when I do my exercises on the fretboard (Fret 1,2,3,4 down a string then shifting over one fret and working up until you reach the twelfth fret) to try and just memorize all the note positions. I understand practice is the missing ingredient here but I also don't feel like there's much guidance on a good way to practice.

NEW:
I understand my post may seem cryptic but I think it is hard to explain what I do not know. I can learn the shapes and patterns, I have a book that mentions 5 surrounding CAGED. It shows a pattern and then says that it is based around a certain chord - I do not see the similarity here; I suppose the root notes are similar in position to the chord shapes? Am I safe to just learn the patterns in each of the 5 keys of CAGED? When it says each one is move-able what is that pertaining to? Find the root note for the key and work the pattern from there? Do all 5 patterns work within CAGED? Or do specific patterns only work with specific keys (notes?). I guess what I am trying to say is if all I have to learn is the patterns and the rest follows, easy, but I feel I'm missing a key component to "unlocking the fretboard". Perhaps my cart is before the horse in the sense of more practice required until I will make sense to others. I just want to know a good, consistent, way to practice scales so I can be efficient in locking this down rather than knowing the A-Minor pentatonic scale through the pattern without really knowing what that even means in the sense of being able to improvise with it. To me a core foundation of blues is the call and response - so much so that notes will be used to mimic the vocals of the singer, very similar to how fingerstyle captures the vocal notes in the arrangement. How do I figure out what key a song is even in to know what scale to play with it?

Thanks all.

[Skarsaune]

I’m not sure what your question was, exactly....
But a major scale in any key is a series of intervals, as follows:
Whole whole half whole whole whole half
A whole step on the guitar is two frets, a half step is one fret.
String to string is 2 1/2 steps except the G to B which is 2.

[Matt.S]

I suppose the question is, how do you tie it all together? What is the “key” to success. Just practice each of the 12 keys in the major scales? The end goal is to play blues. Sorry I knew I’d ramble lol.

So on a single string a whole step is two frets but when going down a string it’s 2 1/2?

[rick-slo]

Pattern practice most every day for some speed and accuracy. Making it nice to listen to musically is something else.

[funkapus]

Like the other reply, I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Originally Posted by Matt.S

I have also tried to learn scales through an online teacher at Blues Guitar Institute but it's like he just stops or tells you to do it in every key but only showing one (C or A generally).

Generally, when someone shows you a scale fingering, what they're really showing you is a moveable pattern. As such, when they've shown it to you in one key, they've shown it to you in 12 keys -- just move the pattern up or down the neck one or more frets, based on the shift to the key you want.

Alphabet runs ABCDEFG; B and E don't have sharps so that means directly to the next letter; if you go back it's a flat instead (who came up with that?);

I'm not sure what you mean by "If you go back it's a flat instead". For the diatonic scales, where 7 distinct notes are present like the major scale, the rule for whether you call the enharmonic notes in the scale by "sharp" or "flat" is "whichever will make each letter appear only once. Thus, in the G major scale, you call the 7th degree of the scale F# rather than Gb so that each letter appears once.

for seemingly all the scales there is a different interval (awesome when you are on one string, not awesome when you have to say "C Major scale, okay I need to go from C to D that would be 2 frets, a whole step or tone, alright now where is D on the fret board here..." so that's why I assume there's patterns or positions?

Can you clarify what you mean here?

If you understand the structure of the diatonic major scale -- the "whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half" thing -- then you can play major scales on one string. Patterns that go across strings are a way to go through the scale without moving your hand so far up or down the neck.

Then there's the CAGED method but once again it's all based on root, from there I guess you walk up C shape, A shape, etc. etc.?

CAGED is one of any number of ways to wrap your mind around some of what you can do on the fretboard. There's nothing fundamental about it; if it helps you, great, but given where you seem to be saying you are with this stuff, I'm not sure I would worry too much about it quite yet. But yes, the CAGED system gives you five different diatonic scale patterns and the chords can be thought of as a subset of the scale patterns.

I've practiced some patterns, but I don't know what I've memorized necessarily. I have planned to start calling out the notes when I do my exercises on the fretboard (Fret 1,2,3,4 down a string then shifting over one fret and working up until you reach the twelfth fret) to try and just memorize all the note positions.

That's certainly an approach to learning the names of the notes on the fretboard, and that can be a handy thing to know.

If this is the stuff you want to work on now, you could do a lot worse than Barrett Tagliarino's Guitar Fretboard Workbook. It covers all this stuff, and in particular gives you exercises to do along the way.

[Matt.S]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Pattern practice most every day for some speed and accuracy. Making it nice to listen too musically is something else.

To me patterns are one thing. Especially in their "proper?" formation. I.E. pattern 4 naturally lines up with the key of G Major, at least in this book. Then you need to search to put that pattern with other keys. Are there patterns naturally specific to keys or each pattern can be played in every key.

Originally Posted by funkapus

Like the other reply, I'm not sure what you're asking here.

I had a feeling that would happen...

Originally Posted by funkapus

Generally, when someone shows you a scale fingering, what they're really showing you is a moveable pattern. As such, when they've shown it to you in one key, they've shown it to you in 12 keys -- just move the pattern up or down the neck one or more frets, based on the shift to the key you want.

I get that, not a very fun homework assignment for me. It's easier for me to see it in each key to check my work. This is more specifically talking around my problem with people teaching you something but never following through; different strokes for different folks (learning styles).

Originally Posted by funkapus

I'm not sure what you mean by "If you go back it's a flat instead". For the diatonic scales, where 7 distinct notes are present like the major scale, the rule for whether you call the enharmonic notes in the scale by "sharp" or "flat" is "whichever will make each letter appear only once. Thus, in the G major scale, you call the 7th degree of the scale F# rather than Gb so that each letter appears once.

You clarified the logical reason behind why it is called a flat vs. a sharp depending on the scale, "whichever will make each letter appear only once". That makes sense, otherwise just calling the same tone something different was odd to me.

Originally Posted by funkapus

Can you clarify what you mean here?

If you understand the structure of the diatonic major scale -- the "whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half" thing -- then you can play major scales on one string. Patterns that go across strings are a way to go through the scale without moving your hand so far up or down the neck.

I mean the interval is easy to see on one string. Transposing that across strings (to limit movement) is another. The quotations attempt to take you through my brain process when trying to figure it out. To me, it seems, without knowing every note how am I to know where a whole or half step puts me when moving down a string for the next note in a scale. Furthermore if I memorized every note on the fretboard and every note required in a scale the patterns would seem irrelevant so they must be a short cut to something.

Originally Posted by funkapus

CAGED is one of any number of ways to wrap your mind around some of what you can do on the fretboard. There's nothing fundamental about it; if it helps you, great, but given where you seem to be saying you are with this stuff, I'm not sure I would worry too much about it quite yet. But yes, the CAGED system gives you five different diatonic scale patterns and the chords can be thought of as a subset of the scale patterns.

I didn't plan to pay attention to it until the one book I have, which seems to do the same thing as BGI saying, "here's a pattern now figure it out for every key", mentions it in the first chapter. The book is "Guitar Soloing" by the Musical Institute, Daniel Gilbert & Beth Marlis - if that means anything.

Originally Posted by funkapus

That's certainly an approach to learning the names of the notes on the fretboard, and that can be a handy thing to know.

I don't want to do more work than is needed but this seems to be a logical approach to me given the constant roadblock of, "wait where is that next note on a different string etc."

Originally Posted by funkapus

If this is the stuff you want to work on now, you could do a lot worse than Barrett Tagliarino's Guitar Fretboard Workbook. It covers all this stuff, and in particular gives you exercises to do along the way.

I'll give it a look. Maybe it's more comprehensive than the aforementioned book I have.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by Matt.S

So on a single string a whole step is two frets but when going down a string it’s 2 1/2?

No. You missed the difference between frets and steps. Going down a string is 2 and 1/2 steps, or 5 frets.

Play your low E string at the 5th fret. That's an A. Same note as the open A string just below it. Fifth fret on the A string is a D, same as the open D just below it.

Originally Posted by Matt.S

To me patterns are one thing. Especially in their "proper?" formation. I.E. pattern 4 naturally lines up with the key of G Major, at least in this book. Then you need to search to put that pattern with other keys. Are there patterns naturally specific to keys or each pattern can be played in every key.

Any pattern can be played in any key. There's no searching, it's just a matter of where you start the pattern. You will need to know the notes on the low E and A string at a minimum, since most of the patterns start with root notes on those strings.
Here's a one octave G major scale. Starts and ends on G.
e|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B|---------------------------------------------------------------|
G|---------------------------------------------------------------|
D|----------------------2--4---5--------------------------------|
A|-------------2-3---5------------------------------------------|
E|-----3---5----------------------------------------------------|

Move the starting point up two frets, to an A, and it's an A major scale:
e|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B|---------------------------------------------------------------|
G|---------------------------------------------------------------|
D|----------------------4--6---7--------------------------------|
A|-------------4-5---7------------------------------------------|
E|-----5---7----------------------------------------------------|

The E string is
E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E
from open to the 12th fret. Move the above pattern wherever you want, and the root note you start on, is the key you're in.

Here's a one octave C major scale starting on the A string:
e|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B|-------------------------------------0---1--------------------|
G|------------------------------0--2----------------------------|
D|-------------------0---2--3----------------------------------|
A|--------------3-----------------------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------------------------------------|

Move it up two frets and it's a D major
e|---------------------------------------------------------------|
B|-------------------------------------2---3--------------------|
G|------------------------------2--4----------------------------|
D|-------------------2---4--5----------------------------------|
A|--------------5-----------------------------------------------|
E|---------------------------------------------------------------|

And so on.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Matt.S

To me patterns are one thing. Especially in their "proper?" formation. I.E. pattern 4 naturally lines up with the key of G Major, at least in this book.

In one position, it would, yes.

The whole key scale - for any key - is a pattern that occupies 12 frets before it repeats (every instance of each of the 7 notes on every string).
The various "box" positions - spanning 4 or 5 frets - are arbitrary sections of the 12 fret pattern which allow you to play the whole scale without moving your fret hand up and down the neck. Each finger has its own fret (with index or pinky sometimes stretching up a fret), and just moves across the neck as required.

Originally Posted by Matt.S

Then you need to search to put that pattern with other keys. Are there patterns naturally specific to keys or each pattern can be played in every key.

The 12-fret mega-pattern is the same for every key. It (and its various sub-patterns) just moves up or down the neck for the different keys.

Originally Posted by Matt.S

I get that, not a very fun homework assignment for me.

FUN??? Who told you this was going to be FUN?!?!?!?


Seriously, of course the process should be fun. Especially so when it's challenging! But if you don't understand something, you're not going to understand it better by digging deeper into it.
So you need to understand ONE major scale first: which note is which - not necessarily ABCDEFG note names but 1234567 scale degrees. The point being that the notes change, but the 1234567 patterns are consistent.

I suggest working solely in open position to start with. Take a C chord and find the C major scale between frets 0-3. Then the G chord and the G major scale between frets 0-4 (you'll need one 4th fret note). And so on. This is partly to associate scales with chords, but also to get used to the patterns. The better you understand frets 0-4, the better you'll make sense of the rest of the neck

Originally Posted by Matt.S

I mean the interval is easy to see on one string. Transposing that across strings (to limit movement) is another.

Right! The guitar is tuned in such a way as to allow you to play a scale without moving your hand - 2 or 3 notes on each string. (This is the same wherever you are on the neck.)
What makes it complicated (why it's hard to see logic in the patterns) is that two of the strings are tuned a major 3rd (4 semitones) apart (G-B), while the others are all perfect 4ths (5 semitones). So there's a consistency of a kind (still somewhat obscure) across strings 6-5-4-3, but then it gets staggered by a fret as it goes cross from 3 to 2.

Originally Posted by Matt.S

To me, it seems, without knowing every note how am I to know where a whole or half step puts me when moving down a string for the next note in a scale.

One (other) thing I suggest is mapping out a scale structure up one string. That lets you see the pattern of scale steps in frets. I.e the major scale of any string is on frets 0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12 of any string. Start on any fret and apply that pattern up the same string and you have the major scale of that note. E.g. the C major scale is frets 3-5-7-8-10-12-14-15 on the A string, and (an octave higher) frets 1-3-5-6-8-10-12-13 on the B string. There's a symmetry of spacing: |2-2-1|-2-|2-2-1|. Or see it as 12 frets divided 5-2-5 (marking the so-called "perfect intervals"), with each 5 being divided 2-2-1.

Then remember that most of the strings are tuned 5 frets apart. So after you play the first 2 or 3 notes on 6th string, the next ones fall 5 frets back on the 5th string, so you just move your fingers across instead of up. (Like I say, the 4 frets between the G and B strings upsets this process. )

Originally Posted by Matt.S

Furthermore if I memorized every note on the fretboard and every note required in a scale the patterns would seem irrelevant so they must be a short cut to something.

The patterns are exactly that: a short cut to getting the notes you need without having to memorise the whole-half- step business.

The CAGED system (although controversial) is useful because ti pins scale patterns to chord shapes - those 5 open position shapes you know, transferred to movable shapes (filling in open strings with barres).
The important thing there is to first understand which notes in each chord shape are root 3rd and 5th. They are then the same relative to the major scale of the root.

In fact, there are many routes to learning the fretboard, and the great thing is they all support each other, they don't conflict. They're all different approaches to building the same map. So don't rely on just one, especially if it's not clicking.
But just one warning tip: avoid any lesson or system which names scale patterns after modes. This will cause endless confusion in the long run. CAGED is flawed, but not as flawed as the so-called modal patterns.
Also, while learning every note on every fret on every string might seem to be the ultimate goal - and you certainly will know that eventually - it's the patterns and chord shapes that are easier to internalise, and will probably be the way you see the fretboard in the end.

[jfitz81]

A couple things I've found useful (I'm still learning...):

1. Learn the scale "box" patterns in one key all the way up the fretboard. In G major, for example, learn the box that starts with the root G on the 3rd fret, 6th string. Then learn the same scale but start it on the second note of the scale: A (5th fret, 6th string). Then the same scale but start it on the third note of the scale: B (7th fret, 6th string). All the way up, and each starting note has its own little box pattern (I skip the 4th and 7th, since they're pretty much contained within the others). Once you get the key of G, do the same in C. Eventually, you'll get to the point where you can play a scale in each key WITHOUT moving positions (or not by much, anyway). I think of each box as a mode just to help me memorize them (although as JonPR mentions, that's not really accurate--the names definitely help me remember the patterns, though!). Along the way, you'll learn where the roots are within each box, which helps start to memorize the notes on the fretboard as well.

2. Learn the major/minor chord triads. I started with the ones on the first three strings, then the ones on strings 2-4, then strings 3-5, then 4-6. These are pretty fun to improvise with by themselves, but they also help you learn where the notes are on the fretboard, and they help (me, at least) visualize the CAGED chords in smaller chunks.

I think this is how a lot of instructors start students (it's how mine taught me, anyway). It's a lot of memorization, but it'll pay off. It's much easier to learn them if you do it in a musical context--find a G backing track on youtube, for example, and play the G scale or improvise within it. Or play each triad for a couple beats and then move to a new one.

[815C]

This video and PDF may be help. Scroll down below the video to see the PDF which has all 15 major scales spelled out, with unique fingerings presented in standard notation, TAB, and diagrams.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Matt.S

I suppose the question is, how do you tie it all together? What is the “key” to success. Just practice each of the 12 keys in the major scales? The end goal is to play blues. Sorry I knew I’d ramble lol.

So on a single string a whole step is two frets but when going down a string it’s 2 1/2?

I completely understand how frustrating it all can seem at times I played for 52 years being relatively guitar theory deficient. I understood basic first position chords and that was about it.



But the answer to "how do you tie it all together" Is- FIRST and FOREMOST understand there are no shortcuts period . It takes a lot of time and and a lot of practice. There is no magic "key to success". No system or formula for "tying it all together at once "
There are systems and formulas for learning particular aspects which when combined with practice starts opening some doors or switching on some light bulbs of understanding . But no single blinding flash that lights the entire universe or opens all the doors to the castle.

So my advise is forget trying find a universal key. Except for possibly the genius level individuals among us. We tend to absorb only small increments of the huge amount of material at a time. ( a teaspoon full at a time, from buckets full of information)



Now that said..... from my personal experience (understanding there was no internet or youtube when I started playing in 1964)
The one thing I would definitely change is not wait until I was 67 to take lessons from a good "Guitar theory teacher" . For by finding the "RIGHT" teacher he helped me learn a basic amount theory in 6 months that I did not learn in 52 years on my own !!!!!!!!!

With the caveat that the teacher had to be good enough to be able to figure out how to relate their knowledge in a way that I could understand, and in response to my individual learning strengths. Which means they cannot be locked in to only one system or formula or teaching method AND they have to be flexible and willing to change their method to suit the students needs not the other way around.
Besides a teacher :

So if the end goal is to play Blues
You have not mentioned your years of experience and or if you already know how to play blues chords ? If not first learn the chords and usual chord progressions (this will be important later)

So for playing Blues leads (understanding this is very basic and only a starting point) you need to start to learn the all the notes on the fretboard (but start with only one string at time beginning with -the Low E or 6th string). And then you need to learn the pentatonic scale patterns (again starting with one pattern like the A minor pentatonic scale pattern first position)

That's what ended up being the most efficient method and what finally worked for me. Was to first start learning and memorizing two things
#1 the notes on the low E string (with later learning the notes on the other strings)
# 2 the A minor pentatonic scale pattern in the first position/pattern (See below ) and then progressively learning the the other Am pentatonic scale patterns moving up the neck.

So in this diagram the A note is the root notes of the scale (5th fret on the low E string) The root notes in the pattern are Red and this pattern starts with first finger on the 5th fret Low E string, and the other numbers represent which fingers play the notes (#1 being the index finger). #4 pinky and so forth.




Now the interesting this is this same pattern in this position is also the C major pentatonic scales 5th pattern/position (with the difference being the root note is now under the 4th, finger on the low E string ) Why this root note is important is (because the root note almost always is also the Key in which the song is being played ) And to get your lead riffs to sound like they fit you want to often start playing leads and almost always end and little lead sections, or phrases, riffs (whatever you want to call them) on that root note.


So you get a two for one pattern Because that one pattern gives
the both the relative major and minor of any key (as also shown in the circle of 5 ths when the relative minors are also shown)

Here is the relative A minor and C major pentatonic scale pattern diagram




So what I am getting at by learning that one pattern and where the notes are on the Low E string you can actually play a (limited ) blues lead run in those two keys
Now there are also what are called "blue/s notes" within pentatonic scales that really cement the blues feel and sound which you should learn also BUT they are not absolutely necessary to start and you can just the pentatonic scales and go from there because those notes are just a couple of added notes to the basic pentatonic scales

[funkapus]

Originally Posted by KevWind

So for playing Blues leads (understanding this is very basic and only a starting point) you need to start to learn the all the notes on the fretboard (but start with only one string at time beginning with -the Low E or 6th string). And then you need to learn the pentatonic scale patterns (again starting with one pattern like the A minor pentatonic scale pattern first position)

That's what ended up being the most efficient method and what finally worked for me. Was to first start learning and memorizing two things
#1 the notes on the low E string (with later learning the notes on the other strings)
# 2 the A minor pentatonic scale pattern in the first position/pattern (See below ) and then progressively learning the the other Am pentatonic scale patterns moving up the neck.

So in this diagram the A note is the root notes of the scale (5th fret on the low E string) The root notes in the pattern are Red and this pattern starts with first finger on the 5th fret Low E string, and the other numbers represent which fingers play the notes (#1 being the index finger). #4 pinky and so forth.

Weird. When I learned what you're referring to as the A minor pentatonic scale pattern, I learned it as the E minor pentatonic scale pattern. I learned it as such because the E minor chord shape falls out of the scale pattern. Note that the root notes in the pattern are in the same place as the root notes in a first position E minor chord. Yes, if you play it at the 5th fret you get an A minor pentatonic scale, but there's nothing special about that -- you could pick any fret to play it at. Why would that be the A minor pentatonic scale pattern?

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by funkapus

Weird. When I learned what you're referring to as the A minor pentatonic scale pattern, I learned it as the E minor pentatonic scale pattern. I learned it as such because the E minor chord shape falls out of the scale pattern. Note that the root notes in the pattern are in the same place as the root notes in a first position E minor chord. Yes, if you play it at the 5th fret you get an A minor pentatonic scale, but there's nothing special about that -- you could pick any fret to play it at. Why would that be the A minor pentatonic scale pattern?

It's a--the word, not the key--minor pentatonic scale pattern, and in the key of A.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by funkapus

Weird. When I learned what you're referring to as the A minor pentatonic scale pattern, I learned it as the E minor pentatonic scale pattern. I learned it as such because the E minor chord shape falls out of the scale pattern. Note that the root notes in the pattern are in the same place as the root notes in a first position E minor chord. Yes, if you play it at the 5th fret you get an A minor pentatonic scale, but there's nothing special about that -- you could pick any fret to play it at. Why would that be the A minor pentatonic scale pattern?

Gotta admit I am not really sure what you are saying .

But I'll take a stab and see if I can explain it

The "basic pattern" in the first image is showing "any" minor key Pentatonic first position/pattern scale.... when starting the pattern on the Low E string. And that root note is the lowest pitch root note in the scale
What makes it the A minor pentatonic scale pattern is that it starts on the 5 th fret (A note) and is played up the neck
In order to make it the E minor pentatonic scale first position/pattern (that you say you learned it as) you would either have to move it up to starting on the 12 th fret (E note) or you move it down to starting by playing the E string open and all the first finger notes would be played open string

Im am totally confused why think the root notes in that pattern are in the same place as the root notes of an E minor chord

The notes of an E minor chord a triad, in the first position are an E B and G.... played with an open G string and B and E notes played in the second fret

The root notes in the A minor pentatonic scale are all A notes and in the diagram are played on the 5th and 7th fret and there is no B note in that pattern ??????

[funkapus]

Originally Posted by KevWind

The "basic pattern" in the first image is showing "any" minor key Pentatonic first position/pattern scale.... when starting the pattern on the Low E string. And that root note is the lowest pitch root note in the scale
What makes it the A minor pentatonic scale pattern is that it starts on the 5 th fret (A note) and is played up the neck

Playing it at the fifth fret makes that pattern produce the notes of an Am pentatonic scale. Playing it at the eighth fret makes that pattern produce the notes of a Cm pentatonic scale. Playing it at the nut causes it to produce the notes of an Em pentatonic scale. But this pattern is usually referred to as the "Em pentatonic scale pattern" in every instructional source I've ever seen or heard, and as I understand it that's because the Em chord *shape* (as opposed to an Em chord sound) is contained within the scale pattern.

Im am totally confused why think the root notes in that pattern are in the same place as the root notes of an E minor chord

The notes of an E minor triad chord in the first position are an E B and G played with an open G string and B and E notes played in the second fret

The root note for an Em chord is E. In an Em chord *shape*, the root notes are on the (open or barred) 1st and 6th strings, as well as the 4th string fretted 2 frets up from the nut or barre. This is the same as the pentatonic scale pattern we're discussing.