#61
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In the beginning, everything was done by ear. This was even before I knew what the notes on the guitar were. One of my first heroes was B.B. King, so I started by listening to and trying to copy some of his licks. During this time I hadn't a clue as to what to do with them, but I was developing my ear and technique to a remarkable degree. It was only until I sat down with someone else who played a few chords that I began to see which of those licks fit with the chords my friend was playing. At that point, I realized that one of the notes I was playing sounded 'stronger' than the rest, and after counting my way up the fingerboard from the open string, I deducted the name of that note matched the chord. After reading about a thing called 'root notes,' I figured correctly that must be what I discovered, which was a very big deal for me. By that time I had amassed dozens of these licks and were now able to see how they fit together in various songs. I also figured out that those movable chords I had been learning - again, by ear - must have root notes and sure enough, I was right. The next discovery was learning that if a barre chord's name could change as it moved up the neck, the same thing could apply to these phrases that I had learned. Another major discovery. I was 15 by then and playing the guitar for about a year, teaching myself as I went along. Somewhere I read that B.B. King played scales so I began to teach myself those starting with the Major Scale. Once I figured out one in a close position, starting with a root note, it was easy enough to move that up the fingerboard to play in different keys. I also remember figuring out that I could come up with a few different fingerings for the scales, starting on root notes on the different strings. Still, I had no idea how to use these scales.. yet. Then I heard Carlos Santana and started adding other notes that sounded more in line with his style. As I played along with his albums, I figured out that he was in a minor key and that the notes I was adding must be somehow related to that key and after a lot of trial and error, discovered my first Minor scale. I also was amazed that this A Minor scale looked EXACTLY like my C Major scale, and it worked perfectly in an A Minor blues. Now, because I learned my Major scale fingerings, I could now play in Minor keys all over the neck. Another discovery!! Oh, and the Major Scales I had figured out worked perfectly in the Country music I was also learning. Somewhere around this time I became interested in jazz, so at that point I figured it would beneficial to pick up a book or two. One was all about music theory as it applied to the guitar. It was here I first learned about chord inversions, which as it turned out I was already playing all over the place. I just had no clue that they were called inversions! I also learned harmonizing scales and creating chords from them, which explained why that Minor Scale worked so well with the Santana sound... it was something called the Aeolian Mode!!! Fancy that! And those improvisations that I had been learning from artists like Jerry Garcia and Dickey Betts... they were using these things called the Mixolydian Mode and the Ionian Mode, stuff that I had been playing the heck out of just by starting at different points along those Major scales that I taught myself. What I'm saying here, in a long winded fashion, is that all of my knowledge of the fingerboard came from PLAYING and TRIAL and ERROR. As I was earning my living on the bandstand since I was 17, I had to get the songs and styles into my head and fingers right then and there, as there was no time to over think this stuff. It was only later that I learned the technical names for what I was playing. However, as I'm always striving to learn, I did start picking up as many books as I could in order to add to the foundation that I had built up. It was only until several years ago that I heard about the CAGED system, and I learned that from watching Ernie Hawkins ( a wonderful fingerpicker ) talk about how he related it to playing the music of Reverend Gary Davis - which I was already playing. Ernie related it to a very straightforward way of playing the guitar in the ragtime/old-timey way of chord melody, which Davis was famous for. Up until my learning the CAGED system, I had taught improvisation by means of licks as they related to their root notes and how they could be moved all over the fingerboard. It wasn't much of a leap to relate those licks to the five basic CAGED positions along the neck. So that's how I did it. I hope that answers your question.
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Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/ |
#62
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The whole caged thing appeals to the geeky guitar guy in me, but in reality give, me a few basic chords, some different inversions up the neck and some double stops and I'm a happy guy. There's so much stuff to play without ever even thinking of seeing a diminished chord, lol.
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Barry My SoundCloud page Avalon L-320C, Guild D-120, Martin D-16GT, McIlroy A20, Pellerin SJ CW Cordobas - C5, Fusion 12 Orchestra, C12, Stage Traditional Alvarez AP66SB, Seagull Folk Aria {Johann Logy}: |
#63
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Great discussion.
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) Last edited by SunnyDee; 06-23-2017 at 10:06 PM. |
#64
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Twenty plus years ago I had your mindset. I set out to learn all of the fancy chord shapes and to be able to play them in any key all over the fretboard. The approach turned out to be a waste of time. First, most of the shapes simply don't sound good, at least to my ear and especially in the full voicing. Second, I found the approach slowed me down when it came to improvising.
So then I ditched that approach and set out to memorize the fretboard apart from chord shapes. I learned where each note was located, learned every position for my scales and how each position was connected to adjacent positions, and I kept working at it until everything became second nature. I started to visualize the fretboard in terms of root notes and numbers and from there built a vocabulary of double stops, triads, inversions, octaves, and chords that sounded good. This turned out to be a much better approach. Frankly, I think learning chords before one learns the scales they are built from is putting the cart before the horse. I guarantee that if you learned your scales first and did so in terms of root notes and numbers, your chord vocabulary would grow much quicker and would be a lot more useful to you. If you are frustrated things are moving too slowly, maybe it's time for a different approach. |
#65
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Approaching the task by learning everything up front as a system may be intellectually interesting, but the practical, effective way seems to be learn one song at a time, contrast and compare things as your repetoire grows and compile your own personal "system" over time.
One thing at a time rather than everything at once...
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#66
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The only problem my mind has with caged is the "c" shape and "d" are really the same with the "d" shape just being the lazy way, lol.
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Barry My SoundCloud page Avalon L-320C, Guild D-120, Martin D-16GT, McIlroy A20, Pellerin SJ CW Cordobas - C5, Fusion 12 Orchestra, C12, Stage Traditional Alvarez AP66SB, Seagull Folk Aria {Johann Logy}: |
#67
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But, I do see that many people give the same advice, just learn songs, and I have wondered how this works for them. Can you, or anyone here who recommends this, say why you think this is effective? How much would one song contribute to a novice's understanding of theory, knowledge of the fretboard, and mastery of fundamental guitar techniques? How many songs do you think the novice would need to learn to gain an intermediate knowledge of all three of these things. To what degree does one need to know the songs, to performance-level? Which songs would cover all these skills? How long would this method take to reach a solid intermediate level in theory, technique, fretboard knowledge, and playing songs? Would it change your recommendation if a person has no wish to play other people's songs, rather, to write original ones? In short, what is so effective about the "just learn songs" method that so many people recommend it?
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) Last edited by SunnyDee; 06-27-2017 at 07:18 PM. |
#68
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(yeah, they grumble at me at the jams, but, i do get a convert every once in a while. One shape serves all)
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amyFb Huss & Dalton CM McKnight MacNaught Breedlove Custom 000 Albert & Mueller S Martin LXE Voyage-Air VM04 Eastman AR605CE |
#69
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Memorizing the dictionary will not make you a poet or a writer. Likewise, playing all the "right" notes in the "right" order will not necessarily be music. Theory generated "music" is like "paint by number" art or the increasingly ubiquitous computer generated "speech text".
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. Last edited by Wyllys; 07-08-2017 at 04:40 PM. |
#70
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__________________
Barry My SoundCloud page Avalon L-320C, Guild D-120, Martin D-16GT, McIlroy A20, Pellerin SJ CW Cordobas - C5, Fusion 12 Orchestra, C12, Stage Traditional Alvarez AP66SB, Seagull Folk Aria {Johann Logy}: |
#71
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I suggest listening to as many different musicians as possible to expand your "sound palette", then blend to taste. I incorporate many sources into my guitar playing: Piano, voice, sax, scat, fiddle, etc, etc, etc...even guitar. Exploring the work of different composers and arrangers is a great way to broaden your "sound vision". And for rock solid chord melody stuff you can't beat a good Lutheran hymnal. I prefer to study and emulate performance rather than a theory-based "guided guesswork" approach. P.S. Try doing your E/A7/B7 stuff in a bunch of other keys, then back to E and see if you pick up anything new on the trip.
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#72
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With D, I'm thinking mostly of its use with 3rd in the bass (6th string) 7X578X and it's open-string counterparts in different keys. |
#73
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I agree with both views, in my limited experience.
I think it's very beneficial to know how scales and chords are constructed, and thus how the fretboard is constructed. It gives you a guide, lets you know what notes are going to definitely work, which can also help in the learning of songs (I no longer think of a song in terms of what fret is being played, but rather the chord and intervals, which I think is much more useful). But on the other hand, I'm also seeing the advantage to quickly building a repertoire. Nothing but learning songs is going to skill you up quicker in terms of playing technique. You don't need to know theory to play songs, and playing songs is what improves your technique and dexterity. If you are older and don't have a lot of spare time due to family, work, and other responsibilities, then I would have to agree that I'd rather focus on learning songs. However, even 10min a day on theory would be beneficial imo. |
#74
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For my side, I wasn't referring to how much time you might have in a day, rather how much time you might have left to live. It could take years of playing songs to absorb, through listening, the patterns and ideas that you can easily grasp if you just get the information from theory, while you're listening and learning technique. Oth, if you don't have long to live, I guess only playing "Nearer My God to Thee" could also make a certain kind of sense.
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) |
#75
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But, you can't get too focused on that. I think it's the wrong perspective, which emphasizes a set destination. There is no destination on guitar, or any musical instrument. There will always be more you want to learn. Tis better to enjoy the journey. Last edited by Kerbie; 06-27-2017 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Removed masked profanity |