ToneDexter Thread (continuation of original thread)

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Racerbob

I experienced a similar situation. The wavemap had more bass than the mic'ed guitar. What I did was reposition the mic to produce a more treble heavy sound and then trained that way. The resulting wavemap was then much closer to the "ideal" mic sound.

Worked on one guitar, haven't tried it on any others yet.

When you say that "the wavemap has more bass than the mic'd guitar" for a particular mic placement, are you comparing a recording of the mic signal (for that mic placement) against a recording of the Dexterized signal produced by the wavemap which was created using that mic placement?

If you are listening to a playback of recordings, I presume that whatever headphones or amplification system you are listening with is coloring both signals equally and the mic signal is indeed less bassy.

If the mic signal is indeed less bassy, that's a bit of a mystery to me. It would seem to go against how ToneDexter is theoretically supposed to work. Its been stated earlier, in the original "ToneDexter Thread", that the Dexterized tone might actually sound a bit less bassy (if any difference is perceived at all) because ToneDexter identifies the instrument's "low resonance frequencies" and reduces the signal level at bit at those frequencies.

Here's the info which I'm referring to. Its from James May, pg. 21, post #307 (point #1) from the original "ToneDexter Thread":

"Since several of you have asked, I'll dig into this topic a little deeper. There are three things that cause the ToneDexter sound to be a little different from the mic sound.

1. The low frequency instrument resonances are reduced by our process, while the overall energy is kept the same. This increases feedback immunity, and also makes the perception of the tonal balance sometimes seem less bassy. For sound reinforcement, we believe this is a much more practical signal to send to an amp than the mic signal would be. Results will vary from guitar to guitar, so if you need more bass, dial it up with the EQ and you'll still be better off with respect to feedback than if we hadn't dealt with the resonances.

2. There is a little bit of information that your ear hears and the mic hears that the pickup just doesn't hear at all. Some call this missing "air". We believe it is mainly the direct radiation off the strings of the clicky picking transients. Since the pickup doesn't hear it, ToneDexter can't process it and as a result, the WaveMap can't do anything about it. To some degree, we could compensate for this psycho-acoustically by adding a high frequency boost to the WaveMap. However, that doesn't always provide the best live sound through a variety of systems. Some systems are hyped at the top anyway, some aren't. We chose not to automatically make this boost for you, but leave it up to you to adjust the treble EQ as needed for your live situation at hand.

3. The WaveMap is about 100ms long. It's long enough to get all of the low frequency energy coming off a guitar, even with altered tuning. But it is not long enough to pick up much of the room sound. As previously discussed, we don't believe extra room sound coming through your speakers will benefit live sound reinforcement. In fact the opposite is true: the Character control allows you to tighten up the sound even more and that has proven to be helpful."


In any event, if the recorded mic signal is indeed less bassy than the recorded Dexterized signal (for a particular training mic position), I'm curious to know how that can occur.

[Uncle Pauhana]

Originally Posted by Racerbob

I experienced a similar situation. The wavemap had more bass than the mic'ed guitar. What I did was reposition the mic to produce a more treble heavy sound and then trained that way. The resulting wavemap was then much closer to the "ideal" mic sound.

Worked on one guitar, haven't tried it on any others yet.

And to slightly rephrase guitanic's question, are you, for instance, comparing the mic'ed guitar over headphones with the wavemap over speakers?

.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Pauhana

And to slightly rephrase guitanic's question, are you, for instance, comparing the mic'ed guitar over headphones with the wavemap over speakers?

.

According to the manual, if you're listening to the mic signal on headphones while playing, there can be some phase cancellation between leakage of the live sound and the headphone sound. You're supposed to set ToneDexter's phase switch for the bassier (more in phase) sound. In any event, its another complicating factor. That's why you'll want to compare a playback of the mic signal against a playback of the Dexterized signal.

Come to think of it, that aforementioned phase cancellation could be why the mic signal is being perceived as less bassy than it actually is. Perhaps that solves the mystery.

[Petty1818]

I am starting to think that this pedal might be more work than is necessary. I guess the beauty of the aura is that you get what you get with it, there's no fusing around with mic placement etc. That could be a negative to some and it was to me but having read through the numerous posts on here, I am not sure how much I want to spend on recording wave maps that sound awesome at home but not so good on stage. Could be frustrating.

[SpruceTop]

I got my Shure SM81 yesterday, so I now have it and the ToneDexter to play around with this Saturday. I think I'll run my Taylor 322ce ES2 through the process first and see what happens. I'm going to limit my initial experimentation to two mic positions and use the best one. First, though, I will listen to the guitar through headphones without training to hear what moving the mic around will do for the tone, and choose the two best settings. I will use a sound-shield device to block-off sound from the rear of the microphone to aid in getting an overall cleaner tone to the mic. 'Dexterization can't be rocket science, can it?

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I got my Shure SM81 yesterday, so I now have it and the ToneDexter to play around with this Saturday.

"I got the Edwina Stereo Pair after trying a Myrtle. The Myrtle was nice but the Edwina pair would be better in more venue situation because you'll get closer to it plus have a mic for vocals and guitar. I have to admit I haven't used these mics other than sparingly at home. They do look Cool!"

Spruce, I am confused. Unless I am misunderstanding this, the entire point of the TD is to make your guitar's amplification system sound more like a microphone, mics being considered the gold standard for acoustic instruments. However, in a thread regarding Ear Trumpet mics you say you purchased Ear Trumpet mics and seem to indicate they work well. Yet you go out and spend serious $ for a TD and pretty serious $ for a Shure SM 81. Why not just use the Ear Trumpet mics when you amplify or, at the very least, to "train" your TD

Steve

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am starting to think that this pedal might be more work than is necessary. I guess the beauty of the aura is that you get what you get with it, there's no fusing around with mic placement etc. That could be a negative to some and it was to me but having read through the numerous posts on here, I am not sure how much I want to spend on recording wave maps that sound awesome at home but not so good on stage. Could be frustrating.

I understand your trepidation, and I would suggest that any one of 25 different condenser mics under $100 combined with an hour of your time will produce an extremely usable stage tone.

This is a very unique product and we're all playing around with it. But I was blown away by the very first "training". And it took all of ten minutes.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am starting to think that this pedal might be more work than is necessary. I guess the beauty of the aura is that you get what you get with it, there's no fusing around with mic placement etc. That could be a negative to some and it was to me but having read through the numerous posts on here, I am not sure how much I want to spend on recording wave maps that sound awesome at home but not so good on stage. Could be frustrating.

The Fishman Aura might be simple to use, but its pretty expensive and time consuming to use the Aura technology on its highest performing level (as used with custom sound images created by the Aura Custom Shop). The instrument must be shipped to Fishman and the user pays $300 plus shipping costs to get a set of custom sound images for that particular instrument/pickup rig. (The cost may be more now. You'd have to contact the Aura Custom Shop for the current price.)

If ToneDexter does nothing more than produce results equal to Aura, as used with custom sound images, its a huge bargain. You get the preamp itself, plus the means (with user-supplied mic and cables) to create your own wavemaps for as many as eleven instruments.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The Fishman Aura might be simple to use, but its pretty expensive and time consuming to use the Aura technology on its highest performing level (as used with custom sound images created by the Aura Custom Shop). The instrument must be shipped to Fishman and the user pays $300 plus shipping costs to get a set of custom sound images for that particular instrument/pickup rig. (The cost may be more now. You'd have to contact the Aura Custom Shop for the current price.)

If ToneDexter does nothing more than produce results equal to Aura, as used with custom sound images, its a huge bargain. You get the preamp itself, plus the means (with user-supplied mic and cables) to create your own wavemaps for as many as eleven instruments.

I don't think money was ever a problem. I have offered many times to different AGF members to make free IRs just to try on their computer (which gives exactly the same result althought a bit awkward) and nobody except Mischief and Doug Young have ever accepted the offer. If anyone wanted a free, Fishman style IR (with No Tonedexter patented innovation) he/she could just pm me...
Then the cost for an actual pedal to host the IR would be 199$ at max, less than a 100$ with the amt Cp-16 module. I don't remember who asked but I can run now the EPSI on li-ion batteries. So it's safe to say that making a small portable IR box will be possible by July ( amt will then deliver the module for Europeans).

The funny thing is that most people would rather invest xxx$ into a fishman aura pedal that is plug n play, than into a Tonedexter that needs mixing, learning, tweaking...

I remember there was a thread about "How was life before knowing about tine woods, bracings, neck joint..." That summarized everything.

* most musician just play music and know little about gear. Just the minimum required to enjoy the music.
* some musician are concerned about gear and like to tweak their sound right
* few are sound fanatics on a quest for Neverland.

my 2 cents,
Cuki

[midwinter]

I just got back from a gig at a ski resort at which we recorded a couple of songs from the output of the Xair 16. Thought you'd all like to hear what the mando sounded like through the TD. Moderate EQ on the mix, compression, stereo spreading, but this is pretty close to what the thing sounds like live.

I'm crazy happy with the way it sounds—which is why I was noodling around like a fool and forgot to sing my harmony line. It was partly cloudy, which meant that all my instruments were giving me trouble with staying in tune.

[midwinter]

I took a minute to clean up an older guitar Tonedexter recording from a performance in a noisy bar few weeks ago.

I eventually rejected this TD wavemap and have one now that sounds much better. As I say in the Soundcloud note, the guitar is a Breedlove C25 American Series with JJB pickups running into a Tonedexter.

Recorded as a stereo two-track mix from the output of a Behringer X16. Moderate EQ on the mix, compression, stereo spreading, and reverb added on what was, for some reason, a very dry signal. This is a very odd room to EQ, and there's notching on the vocals and mains that isn't there in the other post I made from the ski resort.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I just got back from a gig at a ski resort at which we recorded a couple of songs from the output of the Xair 16. Thought you'd all like to hear what the mando sounded like through the TD. Moderate EQ on the mix, compression, stereo spreading, but this is pretty close to what the thing sounds like live.

I'm crazy happy with the way it sounds—which is why I was noodling around like a fool and forgot to sing my harmony line. It was partly cloudy, which meant that all my instruments were giving me trouble with staying in tune.

The mando sounds good to me also. Its miked-instrument quality sound, yet loud enough to hold its own in the mix with an electronic keyboard.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The mando sounds good to me also. Its miked-instrument quality sound, yet loud enough to hold its own in the mix with an electronic keyboard.

Agree with Guitaniac. Midwinter, if you don't sell 3 Tonedexters to different AGF members with thoses samples I don't understand music anymore!!!

It sounds like a professional advertisement video!! With the only difference that in a pro ad, the sound would have been tweaked by a dozen plugins without notice!

Cuki

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Agree with Guitaniac. Midwinter, if you don't sell 3 Tonedexters to different AGF members with thoses samples I don't understand music anymore!!!

It sounds like a professional advertisement video!! With the only difference that in a pro ad, the sound would have been tweaked by a dozen plugins without notice!

Cuki

Ha! The irony is that my partner (the piano player and singer on the Waits tune) made a video of the performance. We haven't tossed it up on YouTube yet, but that FaceBook video should be viewable even without an account.

[midwinter]

To which I should add: there's a *little* bit of gain difference between my guitar and the other instruments. I think what I'm going to do is use the boost to level that out and get the guitar sounding fuller/louder. I'll have to see whether the TD's 8db boost is enough I may have to use the boost on the Empress that's in the loop, since it provides waaaaay more gain (up to +30db).