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Old 01-12-2018, 11:12 AM
rt_peasant rt_peasant is offline
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Default G major scale in open position

Hi, I've been playing for 2 years and decided to learn my first scale. All of the songs that I play use strummed chords in open position, the majority in the key of G. So the G major scale in open position seems like a logical choice for my first scale. Should help with licks, walk-ups between bass notes, etc.

I watched lessons on YouTube for this scale, and there are a lot. There seems to be 2 different fingerings, which I'll call classical and practical, because that's what one instructor called them. The classical keeps finger 1 on the 1st fret, finger 2 on the 2nd fret, etc. The practical moves over one fret and uses the first finger on the 2nd fret, then second finger on the 3rd fret, etc., until you get to the B string, then it moves over to the 1st fret.

About 1/3 of instructors teach the "classical" fingering, and about 2/3 of instructors teach the "practical" fingering. But nobody discusses the advantages of learning one over the other.

When I play a G chord, it's usually with the 3rd finger on the 3rd fret on the low E string. So the classical fingering makes more sense to me, since that's where my hand spends a lot of time anyway. But I'd hate to spend a lot of time training my fingers on that fingering pattern if it's not very practical, as one instructor said.

Do you see an advantage to either fingering?
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:15 AM
Hotspur Hotspur is offline
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It honestly doesn't make that much difference.

Eventually you'll get to a point where it's more intuitive, and you're not focused of the mechanics of the fingering. I couldn't tell you what fingering I use without picking up the guitar and doing a few runs.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:27 AM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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When practiced, from a functional standpoint there is little difference in the two fingerings. However, in 1st position you have open strings with open sound involved, the minor difficulty is playing that F# on the 4th string with the 4th finger can be awkward at first. The 2nd position fingering with your 2nd finger starting on low G is that you would use your 4th (pinky) finger 3 times. The advantage to using the 2nd position fingering is that you can then take that fingering all the way up the neck. Want to play A major? Just move that all up 2 frets and you're there. It's then just a matter of what to call the notes from a 4th position fingering in the key of A.

However, a lot of bluegrass licks get fingered in 1st position because of that open string sound. So, I suggest for many reasons you learn G major in both positions to start. Then do the same thing with C major in 1st and 2nd positions for all the same reasons.

Good luck.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:38 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
When practiced, from a functional standpoint there is little difference in the two fingerings. However, in 1st position you have open strings with open sound involved, the minor difficulty is playing that F# on the 4th string with the 4th finger can be awkward at first. The 2nd position fingering with your 2nd finger starting on low G is that you would use your 4th (pinky) finger 3 times. The advantage to using the 2nd position fingering is that you can then take that fingering all the way up the neck. Want to play A major? Just move that all up 2 frets and you're there. It's then just a matter of what to call the notes from a 4th position fingering in the key of A.

However, a lot of bluegrass licks get fingered in 1st position because of that open string sound. So, I suggest for many reasons you learn G major in both positions to start. Then do the same thing with C major in 1st and 2nd positions for all the same reasons.

Good luck.
As usual vindibona is spot on.
Forming the "G" shaped "cowboy chord as most bluegrass pickers do will allow you to play the scales up the neck; A, B,C and so on simply by moving it to the next position up . The neat thing about that is for soloing and fills you're right where you need to be and it makes it easy. Your index finger becomes very important in doing that. Try it, a light bulb may go on.
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Last edited by rokdog49; 01-12-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:29 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt_peasant View Post
Hi, I've been playing for 2 years and decided to learn my first scale. All of the songs that I play use strummed chords in open position, the majority in the key of G. So the G major scale in open position seems like a logical choice for my first scale. Should help with licks, walk-ups between bass notes, etc.

I watched lessons on YouTube for this scale, and there are a lot. There seems to be 2 different fingerings, which I'll call classical and practical, because that's what one instructor called them. The classical keeps finger 1 on the 1st fret, finger 2 on the 2nd fret, etc. The practical moves over one fret and uses the first finger on the 2nd fret, then second finger on the 3rd fret, etc., until you get to the B string, then it moves over to the 1st fret.

About 1/3 of instructors teach the "classical" fingering, and about 2/3 of instructors teach the "practical" fingering. But nobody discusses the advantages of learning one over the other.

When I play a G chord, it's usually with the 3rd finger on the 3rd fret on the low E string. So the classical fingering makes more sense to me, since that's where my hand spends a lot of time anyway. But I'd hate to spend a lot of time training my fingers on that fingering pattern if it's not very practical, as one instructor said.

Do you see an advantage to either fingering?
Some thoughts....

First, the most important thing to get in your head is that "do re mi fa sa la ti do" IS the major scale...AND that this "major scale" is the only major scale there is....and that all you are really doing when you attach a letter name{pitch} to it is the same "do re mi" but just starting off of what ever letter name note you pick...

So if you start "do re mi" off a C note, you would be playing a C major scale, if you start off of G, it will be a G major scale...

So the real key to learning is using your ears...

pick any note, then using your EARS, using the "do re mi" , you should be able to 1 finger it until you play all the notes, and thus the scale...

This is the best and fastest way to learn a scale and music in general and takes some of the mystery out of it all....

The notes you play in various scales may be different, but the "do re mi fa sa la to do" stays the same

Last edited by jessupe; 01-12-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:07 PM
markallen markallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
The advantage to using the 2nd position fingering is that you can then take that fingering all the way up the neck. Want to play A major? Just move that all up 2 frets and you're there. It's then just a matter of what to call the notes from a 4th position fingering in the key of A.
Great advice right here and something that I was fortunate enough to be told early on in my playing and I'm sure it saved me countless hours of frustration.

Cheers,
Mark
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:30 PM
rt_peasant rt_peasant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
When practiced, from a functional standpoint there is little difference in the two fingerings. However, in 1st position you have open strings with open sound involved, the minor difficulty is playing that F# on the 4th string with the 4th finger can be awkward at first. The 2nd position fingering with your 2nd finger starting on low G is that you would use your 4th (pinky) finger 3 times. snip...
Thanks, vindibona1. I learned something from your reply. My question however, deals with two different fingerings for the same 1st position scale. In the fingering that the instructor called "classical", the fingers stay strictly on the same fret all the way up the strings: 1st finger 1st fret, 2nd finger 2nd fret, etc., while in the so-called "practical" fingering, the 1st finger is on the 2nd fret, 2nd finger on the 3rd fret, etc. for strings 1-4, then moves over to the 1st fret for the 5th and 6th string. In the "classical" fingering, the index finger only gets used once, on the B string 1st fret, and the pinky gets used once. In the "practical" fingering, it's index, middle, ring finger all the way through the strings and the pinky never gets used. He never explains why he considers the 2nd "practical" fingering more practical. Perhaps it's because when you're doing improvisations, you would typically use your index finger a lot, which the "classical" fingering mostly leaves out?

Here's the lesson that I was referring to, FWIW. The practical fingering is at 1:48 and the classical is at 7:02.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLeTbMJm_xg
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:27 AM
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rogthefrog rogthefrog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt_peasant View Post
Hi, I've been playing for 2 years and decided to learn my first scale. All of the songs that I play use strummed chords in open position, the majority in the key of G. So the G major scale in open position seems like a logical choice for my first scale. Should help with licks, walk-ups between bass notes, etc.

I watched lessons on YouTube for this scale, and there are a lot. There seems to be 2 different fingerings, which I'll call classical and practical, because that's what one instructor called them. The classical keeps finger 1 on the 1st fret, finger 2 on the 2nd fret, etc. The practical moves over one fret and uses the first finger on the 2nd fret, then second finger on the 3rd fret, etc., until you get to the B string, then it moves over to the 1st fret.

About 1/3 of instructors teach the "classical" fingering, and about 2/3 of instructors teach the "practical" fingering. But nobody discusses the advantages of learning one over the other.

When I play a G chord, it's usually with the 3rd finger on the 3rd fret on the low E string. So the classical fingering makes more sense to me, since that's where my hand spends a lot of time anyway. But I'd hate to spend a lot of time training my fingers on that fingering pattern if it's not very practical, as one instructor said.

Do you see an advantage to either fingering?
The advantage is in knowing both. Playing a scale is not really about which finger goes on which fret. It's about which note comes after another (i.e. it's about the frets). Some pieces will be easier to play with one fingering, others with a different fingering.

Very little music worth playing is comprised of scales. So the fingers used to play notes from a scale in order are not terribly important. You need to be able to play the notes, so practice both fingerings. Then find more fingering options and learn those too.
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Old 01-15-2018, 09:27 PM
rt_peasant rt_peasant is offline
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Thanks all for the comments. I appreciate it.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:06 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
Some thoughts....

First, the most important thing to get in your head is that "do re mi fa sa la ti do" IS the major scale...AND that this "major scale" is the only major scale there is....and that all you are really doing when you attach a letter name{pitch} to it is the same "do re mi" but just starting off of what ever letter name note you pick...

So if you start "do re mi" off a C note, you would be playing a C major scale, if you start off of G, it will be a G major scale...

So the real key to learning is using your ears...

pick any note, then using your EARS, using the "do re mi" , you should be able to 1 finger it until you play all the notes, and thus the scale...

This is the best and fastest way to learn a scale and music in general and takes some of the mystery out of it all....

The notes you play in various scales may be different, but the "do re mi fa sa la to do" stays the same
Yes, for me, too, it's knowing how to play the intervals between the notes in that major pattern no matter where you are on the fretboard by knowing that mi to fa and ti to do is a half step and how to make the intervals between strings. Then you can play any major scale starting anywhere and see how the chords are formed within it.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:53 AM
Earwitness Earwitness is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
Some thoughts....

First, the most important thing to get in your head is that "do re mi fa sa la ti do" IS the major scale...AND that this "major scale" is the only major scale there is....and that all you are really doing when you attach a letter name{pitch} to it is the same "do re mi" but just starting off of what ever letter name note you pick...

So if you start "do re mi" off a C note, you would be playing a C major scale, if you start off of G, it will be a G major scale...

So the real key to learning is using your ears...

pick any note, then using your EARS, using the "do re mi" , you should be able to 1 finger it until you play all the notes, and thus the scale...

This is the best and fastest way to learn a scale and music in general and takes some of the mystery out of it all....

The notes you play in various scales may be different, but the "do re mi fa sa la to do" stays the same
My kids took piano lessons many years from a French man who had them sing the actual notes in solfege with the melody, wherever the scale began--so for a G scale, they would sing sol la ti do re ... etc. (not just scales, songs, too, but you get the idea). Apparently that is most common in Europe. Then, when they got into choir, they used a "movable do," where the solfege singing would use "do" as the tonic note, whatever pitch that would be. Apparently more in use in USA. The kids did not like it because they had learned to associate the syllable "sol" or "ti" with an actual pitch, not just a relationship to the tonic.

Random point. Anyway, I agree with you about how to learn the scales by ear.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:55 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by Earwitness View Post
My kids took piano lessons many years from a French man who had them sing the actual notes in solfege with the melody, wherever the scale began--so for a G scale, they would sing sol la ti do re ... etc. (not just scales, songs, too, but you get the idea). Apparently that is most common in Europe. Then, when they got into choir, they used a "movable do," where the solfege singing would use "do" as the tonic note, whatever pitch that would be. Apparently more in use in USA. The kids did not like it because they had learned to associate the syllable "sol" or "ti" with an actual pitch, not just a relationship to the tonic.

Random point. Anyway, I agree with you about how to learn the scales by ear.
I'm sure that was an uncomfortable adjustment for them. :P

For learning the fretboard, though, imo, fixed do is just another way to name notes and is not very useful, but moveable do, for me, has been a revelation. With it, I can keep up with where I am in the scale no matter where I'm playing on the fretboard or in what key and I can spell all the chords I need on the fly. "Do mi so" is always the I chord in any major key. In fact all the triads are made from just 7 syllable pairs that describe major and minor thirds (major: do mi, fa la, so ti, and minor: mi so, la do, ti re, and re fa). Once I knew those, I could easily spell any of the chords on the fly because they overlap (mi so will be followed by so ti, fa la will be followed by la do, etc.) and all I had to know was how to form a major third or a minor third on the fretboard. Useful stuff and it covers all major and minor keys.

Anyway, back to the OP, if you haven't already, I encourage you to see all major scales as the same pattern of intervals. In my view, fingering changes depending on what you're playing and how you need to transition, but those intervals are always the same. Best of luck!
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:06 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Well the moveable "do" is what I call "a lazy amedican idea" . Solfège actually has a system using other two letter names for all scales in all keys. Which can make it not so simple BUT for teaching a major scale for novice students itreally is the fastest best way to learn/teach.

The use of a piano in conjunction helps to see this. When I teach music to people IF one wants to play guitar they MUST also get piano lessons as they pertain to learning scales and basic theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge

I find that most people who already have exposure to music lessons and are in the process of learning, NOTHING starts to make it all make sense like incorporating it into your routine.

Again music at its core is a hearing art or based in sound. When we get sucked into looking at scales as visual patterns we tend to loose the "spirit" of what we are really doing,solfege helps bring it back to what it is...using your ears.

Scales by usesing eyes only makes it so you don't even pay attention to the sound until you are able to play it all the way through, solfege makes it so you already know what the "sound" or pitch you want is, and then you just need to find it with your eyes via your finger.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:17 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
Some thoughts....

First, the most important thing to get in your head is that "do re mi fa sa la ti do" IS the major scale...AND that this "major scale" is the only major scale there is....RS, using the "do re mi" , you should be able to 1 finger it until you play all the notes, and thus the scale...

The notes you play in various scales may be different, but the "do re mi fa sa la to do" stays the same
It may be important to acknowledge that solfeggio (do, re,mi, etc) stays the same for all major scales IN THE US AND NORTH AMERICA it is not the same in much of Europe and the rest of the world. What we use is called the "moveable do" where as you say Do will be the tonic of a major scale regardless of the key. In other parts of the world they used the "fixed Do" where. C is Do, D is Re, etc, and these syllables will not change when the key changes.

My personal opinion is that while sofeggio has it's uses, I've never found it to be terribly helpful and found traditional theory notations easier to understand and translate into music and it's mechanics.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:32 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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First off, you are numbering the strings wrong, which will confuse people. That fat string closest to your face is number 6; the skinniest one furthest from your face is called the first string. Kind of arbitrary, but that is the convention.

Second, pretty much nobody plays steel string guitar using what this guy calls "classical" fingering.

Third, while many people do use what he calls "practical" fingering, it's a bad idea to change hand positions in the middle of a scale--going from second position to first position to get the C note on the B (2nd) string--and it's unnecessary, because you already have that C right under your pinky on the G (3rd) string. Dropping down a position to get that C note is just wasted movement. There are situations where you will want to stretch an index finger or pinky a fret away from where it has been, but that should be done by stretching with the finger--not by moving the whole hand. And don't worry about those stretches now--they come a lot later in your playing.

Fourth, this teacher is missing out on the chance to teach you a really useful bit of information, which Vindibona pointed out--playing a scale that is moveable because it uses no open strings. With your hand in 2nd position you have all the notes of the G Major scale right under your fingers if you use your pinky instead of open strings to get the same note as the open string (except where you use the ring finger on the G (3rd) string to play B, which the YouTube guy already has you doing). Practice without open strings and now you can play the major scale in every key! You do this by moving the same fingering pattern up or down the neck.
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