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  #106  
Old 06-28-2017, 11:06 AM
Pine Pine is offline
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Originally Posted by Llewlyn View Post
Originally Posted by JonPR
Bad reasons for learning theory (because it won't answer the following):
1. "I want to know why this sounds good."
2. "I want to be a better player."
3. "I want to be a better improviser or composer."

I would bet that most music graduates would strongly argue with this.

Ll.
I am no music graduate, but would not agree with this either. Theory has helped me with all these, except composing, which I have never attempted.

I suspect these debates will always exist, partially because there is no widely agreed upon definition of what comprises a "guitarist", or "musician".

I strongly prefer learning a technique, then applying that technique to music I like. I found it discouraging trying to learn a technique as part of learning a song, so I shifted to a more structured learning environment that includes theory, technique, and repertoire.

Whether you use a formalized, structured learning system, an ad hoc method, or something in-between, it doesn't matter as long as it takes you where you want to go. The only bad thing is being dismissive of those who have chosen a different path from ours.
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  #107  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:22 PM
s0cks s0cks is offline
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I think it's hard for relatively new players, like Sunny and I, to grasp the fact that experienced music players are just playing by ear and feeling. I can't do that yet, at least not to any great level, so it seems like some magical land.

For us, knowing the theory allows us to experiment and understand why things work (i.e that a V7 wants to resolve to the I). It's easier to figure out the chords of a song if you understand how chords fit into a key (as another example). We could also solo and know what notes will work (another example).

This is obviously useful, and will help us work towards training our ear, right? If I hear the first two notes from the Star Wars theme I might recognize that it sounds like a 5th, so I can play that on the guitar thanks to knowing my theory.

On the other hand. I get what you guys are saying. In the end you don't want to have to think about what interval/chord/triad to play next. You want it to be intuitive, like language - I don't think about what word I need to say next to form a sentence, it just happens. I think it would be amazing to get to that level in music. But I don't see why theory can't at least help you get there.
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  #108  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:46 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by s0cks View Post
I think it's hard for relatively new players, like Sunny and I, to grasp the fact that experienced music players are just playing by ear and feeling. I can't do that yet, at least not to any great level, so it seems like some magical land.
We got where we are by spending years playing music. There's no substitute for putting in thousands of hours of playing. I set out to learn to play by ear, to hear changes and to play along with things in real time.

I had had fifteen years of music lessons, school bands, church choir and all "the usual" stuff, but if it wasn't on paper in front of me I was stuck. It took another 5 years of hard work "just doing it" to really get going, and I mean 5 years of doing nothing but playing and listening almost every waking moment. The second 5 year period of working with bands found me playing stand-up bass, banjo and learning fiddle.

After that followed a ten year stretch of working in groups, so the total time to really get it figures to about 20 years of continual striving and continuous improvement. As of now I've spent around 65 years doing music of one sort or another and can readily attest to the old adage that the first 20 years are the hard part.

There are so many threads discussing the how-to's and where-for's, but the bottom line is TIME...not measured in "hours of practice/day", but in years and years of playing. Make music, have fun and enjoy the trip. To paraphrase another old saying, "Play music every day for 100 years and you'll live a long and happy life."

Edit:

When I think back to when I started that first 5 year stint it seems like yesterday...
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Last edited by Wyllys; 06-28-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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  #109  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:58 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by s0cks View Post
I think it's hard for relatively new players, like Sunny and I, to grasp the fact that experienced music players are just playing by ear and feeling. I can't do that yet, at least not to any great level, so it seems like some magical land.

For us, knowing the theory allows us to experiment and understand why things work (i.e that a V7 wants to resolve to the I). It's easier to figure out the chords of a song if you understand how chords fit into a key (as another example). We could also solo and know what notes will work (another example).

This is obviously useful, and will help us work towards training our ear, right? If I hear the first two notes from the Star Wars theme I might recognize that it sounds like a 5th, so I can play that on the guitar thanks to knowing my theory.

On the other hand. I get what you guys are saying. In the end you don't want to have to think about what interval/chord/triad to play next. You want it to be intuitive, like language - I don't think about what word I need to say next to form a sentence, it just happens. I think it would be amazing to get to that level in music. But I don't see why theory can't at least help you get there.
Nice points. I think that sometimes experienced players underestimate the depths of my ignorance. For example, in trying to pick out a 4 chord progression in a simple song, I used to think that the choices for the 4 were just completely random chaos and could be anything! Anything! How could I ever choose?! I'm sure, now that I know how things work, that if I really played 4 truly completely random chords in succession that most of the experienced players I know would not be able to identify them. I'm sure of it.

However, now I know that it's not random at all, that the choices for those chords are coming from the key and there are really only a handful of possibilities and that, in fact, the progressions themselves are repeated and common. Now, knowing that, I can hear it, and I can pick out the chords in a progression for a simple 4 chord song, now, relatively easily, and not just in the keys I've played, but in any key.

Before, I had no idea there was a relationship between the keys or even what a key was or what a progression was or even what a chord was. To me, it was all magic and confusion, and there was no way I was ever going to sort that out myself through listening, not in this lifetime. Wyllys says there's no substitute for putting in thousands of hours and mentions 20 years. The fact is I'm simply too old; I don't have 20 years. I needed this information sooner than that to enjoy this at all, and I'm happy with how far I've come in this amount of time. This is why theory and deliberate learning has been useful to me, because, in fact, it does substitute for a lot of those hours.
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Last edited by SunnyDee; 06-28-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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  #110  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:10 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Sunny...

All the theory I ever needed to get going was having someone show me the I/IV/V chords for the keys of C/A/G/E and D...seven chords in all. The next level was learning songs introducing the II, III and/or VI chords, still just those same seven chords. That and a couple of minor key songs like House of the Rising Sun was enough to let me jam with folks and pick up stuff from them while we were having fun.

Maybe waiting for it to click is the hardest part. Patience.
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  #111  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:23 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Sunny...

All the theory I ever needed to get going was having someone show me the I/IV/V chords for the keys of C/A/G/E and D...seven chords in all. The next level was learning songs introducing the II, III and/or VI chords, still just those same seven chords. That and a couple of minor key songs like House of the Rising Sun was enough to let me jam with folks and pick up stuff from them while we were having fun.

Maybe waiting for it to click is the hardest part. Patience.
I think what you may be missing is that it already clicked. I went from knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about music or guitar to a solid intermediate level in ear training, guitar technique, theory, and fretboard knowledge in a bit over a year, because I did NOT simply try to copy songs.

I can play to campfire level probably 12-20 songs and anything you put in front of me with chords I know and am strumming, but that alone would NEVER have taught me how music is structured, how to play in EVERY key, how different styles differ musically so that I can borrow from them, the architecture of the fretboard so that I can improvise melodies all over it, and all the fundamental guitar techniques that don't happen to be in those campfire songs, and, yet, from learning what you call a waste of time, I now know ALL of that.

For some reason, naysayers seem to think that we are not loving the music or enjoying the study, but I have loved it! I just wish that other beginners like me were not being scared away from the same level of learning.

I guess the point is that, no, I can't perform that many songs that other people wrote, but I can play guitar. I can play the music I hear in my head for the songs I wrote and that was my goal from the beginning.
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Last edited by SunnyDee; 06-28-2017 at 06:27 PM.
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  #112  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:34 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
I think what you may be missing is that it already clicked. I went from knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about music or guitar to a solid intermediate level in ear training, guitar technique, theory, and fretboard knowledge in a bit over a year, because I did NOT simply try to copy songs.

I can play to campfire level probably 12-20 songs and anything you put in front of me with chords I know and am strumming, but that alone would NEVER have taught me how music is structured, how to play in EVERY key, how different styles differ musically so that I can borrow from them, the architecture of the fretboard so that I can improvise melodies all over it, and all the fundamental guitar techniques that don't happen to be in those campfire songs, and, yet, from learning what you call a waste of time, I now know ALL of that.

For some reason, naysayers seem to think that we are not loving the music or enjoying the study, but I have loved it! I just wish that other beginners like me were not being scared away from the same level of learning.
Good for you! Glad you're happy with it.
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  #113  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:57 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Good for you! Glad you're happy with it.
Thank you. I just think that experienced players telling late beginners that they are wasting their time learning, that there's no substitute for just listening and playing other people's songs for 20 years is not only mistaken, but harmful.

I'm really glad I didn't hear messages like that when I started a year ago and was still having trouble forming a C chord. Ideally, when beginners come here asking theory questions, the questions would be answered without the discouragement, but with the encouragement they need for their own journey and respect for the fact that people learn in different ways.
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Last edited by SunnyDee; 06-29-2017 at 05:52 AM.
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  #114  
Old 06-28-2017, 06:30 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
Thank you. I just think that experienced players telling late beginners that they are wasting their time learning, that there's no substitute for just listening and playing other people's songs for 20 years is not only mistaken, but harmful.

I'm really glad I didn't hear messages like that when I started a year ago when I was still having trouble forming a C chord.


I've never said studying theory is time wasted. What I've said is that it is no substitute for ear training, learning songs and LOTS of playing. It's a chicken/egg thing. For me it has made sense to just do it and analyze things later.

What IS a waste of time is theory without practice.
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  #115  
Old 06-28-2017, 06:45 PM
jimrivera jimrivera is offline
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Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
I think what you may be missing is that it already clicked. I went from knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about music or guitar to a solid intermediate level in ear training, guitar technique, theory, and fretboard knowledge in a bit over a year, because I did NOT simply try to copy songs.

I can play to campfire level probably 12-20 songs and anything you put in front of me with chords I know and am strumming, but that alone would NEVER have taught me how music is structured, how to play in EVERY key, how different styles differ musically so that I can borrow from them, the architecture of the fretboard so that I can improvise melodies all over it, and all the fundamental guitar techniques that don't happen to be in those campfire songs, and, yet, from learning what you call a waste of time, I now know ALL of that.

For some reason, naysayers seem to think that we are not loving the music or enjoying the study, but I have loved it! I just wish that other beginners like me were not being scared away from the same level of learning.

I guess the point is that, no, I can't perform that many songs that other people wrote, but I can play guitar. I can play the music I hear in my head for the songs I wrote and that was my goal from the beginning.
Just ignore those who say, "oh we learned by ear, so stop wasting time on that theory stuff." It's one of the reasons I rarely come here, I do not appreciate how the forum operates in a lot of ways.

You and I are learning the right way-because by using a structured environment we can become guitar players, not song players. We are learning the chords and their forms all over the guitar so that once we hear something and know its a dmaj7, we know how to form it instantly and where on the neck it should be formed.

As someone who has played other instruments for decades, I never saw people mocking another for learning theory alongside their ears, this seems to be something unique to guitar, and am glad that people like Justin Sandercoe, who is an outstanding player and learned by ear, exist and recognize that a structured learning platform based on theory plus ear training is the best means of becoming a complete player.

Those older players who sat listening to records and tapes and worked out what the guitarist was doing and are acting like martyrs for the cause don't engage me as a player; it is a different era and the 1960s and 70s are over.

I wish this thread I started did not get derailed as it has, but it is another example of what I DON'T like about the forum. On to other things...
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  #116  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:25 PM
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It has been a good thread IMO. For those open to it there is some excellent comments and advice from JonPR, Toby Walker, and Tommy Emmanuel.
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  #117  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:51 PM
s0cks s0cks is offline
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Yeah, I don't think anyone is being hostile, though with written text it can be hard to judge tone. Some great discussion.

Right now, for me personally, I'm concentrating on the physical technique of playing. I'm pretty satisfied with the theory side of things and I'm more interested in building my dexterity and muscle memory.
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  #118  
Old 06-28-2017, 09:44 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Right now, for me personally, I'm concentrating on the physical technique of playing. I'm pretty satisfied with the theory side of things and I'm more interested in building my dexterity and muscle memory.
I've ramped this up, too. I had to put in a lot of effort a couple months ago to learn the fretboard, so after that, I really put more time into just the physical side, hammer-ons, walk ups, barre transitions.... I work on all the aspects, theory/technique/songs/etc everyday, but the focus shifts at different times. I've introduced sight reading recently, that's the newest thing.
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  #119  
Old 06-28-2017, 10:36 PM
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I'm terrible at organizing my practice. I tend to just concentrate on one thing until I'm satisfied. Lol. It's a bad habit of mine.
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  #120  
Old 06-29-2017, 05:28 AM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Practice and process are very personal and individual. Some things are universal, but for the most part, you have to find what works for you. You can find great professional players who have come from very differing philosophical and practical places re theory, technique, repertoire, transcription...all of it. Yet, they all play well, and can play with other musicians well.

Some appreciate a little more breaking things down, abstraction, compartmentalization of skills/concepts, while others prefer a more holistic approach. Tommy Emmanuel's approach might be really helpful to you, if it suits your temperament etc., but it's insulting to him AND to others who might follow him to imply that exactly the same processes will have exactly the same results with others.

Anyway, I think you have to be careful of turning broader fundamental truths into internet advice "rules", when they're based more on your personal opinion. "Don't neglect learning tunes at the expense of isolated technical exercises" is a broader concept, probably more of a basic truth. But that's very different from from things like "Tommy Emmanuel did X" or "You don't ever need to practice specific skills in isolation/learn theory/learn to read music etc etc.". That's more personal truth or opinion.

All of those things may be true for certain INDIVIDUALS, but they aren't for necessarily true for everyone, not even all of T.E.'s professional counterparts. It's not really about "Who is is right? The technical-study-pro or the holistic-tune-based-pro?". That's really the wrong question. They BOTH play together well and have different processes and approaches toward practice.

Last edited by mattbn73; 06-29-2017 at 05:34 AM.
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