Alternating thumb: Why is it so hard?

[agfsteve]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Reminds of when I learned to drive (aged 50). It's gotta be easy, right? Nope - you have to use your hands to control both the steering wheel and the gearstick, your feet to control the pedals (all 3 of them), AND you have to look where you're going at the same time!! How does anyone do that??
But of course, through constant repetition you learn, and it all becomes subconscious. Now I can have a conversation while driving, and not even miss my turnings.

Originally Posted by JonPR

This sounds to me as if you're working on a tune that's a little too complicated for where you are now. You're getting lost because you haven't got the groove down.

When I began, the first fingerstyle tunes I learned were these (from the record, not a book, aged 17):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3mGV5pDDsM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqjUWJtH88c

The first is about the simplest pattern you can have, the thumb rocking from 6th to 4th all the way, while the finger (and it only needs one finger) plays the melody. For the right hand, it's really just a repeated one-bar pattern. (Standard tuning, capo on 4, btw.)

The second tune is a good test of being able to keep the thumb on the beat - not alternating this time - while the finger (or two) plays a melodic motif against the beat.

Neither of these is hard, if you start real slow and plot out the thumb-finger actions beat by beat. And rinse and repeat. (I played along with a tape deck at half-speed. Now youtube will do that for you.)

Once you're up to tempo with this sort of thing (which might take weeks, or months if you're not a teenager any more... ), you have the co-ordination to tackle more complex patterns, and faster tempos.

Thanks, JonPR!

The learning-to-drive analogy is good for me because I can remember at the time thinking it would be too hard for me to ever get to the point where I would be able to perform all those actions correctly with potentially lethal results if I got them wrong. The stakes were high, so I really had to focus and be methodical while the actions became second nature over time.

The first Bert Jansch song, Running From Home, reminds me of Alexi Murdoch.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by McGee

When I was done working through these lessons, I never again really struggled with thumb independence. I also never played those songs again!

Some people are saying they don't think there is thumb independence, that they learn a pattern beat by beat, note by note, and then speed it up. I've seen songs taught that way, but I find it very slow compared to what I'm actually doing.

To me, it's like tapping your foot. Most of us tap a foot when we play to keep the pulse, but we don't line up our hands with our foot, beat by beat. First foot tap, left hand pinch, and, fret C, second foot tap, pinch... For me, the thumb is like tapping the foot. My understanding was that was the goal, to transfer that unconscious keeping of the beat from the foot to the thumb. Are other people thinking about their foot?

[TBman]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Some people are saying they don't think there is thumb independence, that they learn a pattern beat by beat, note by note, and then speed it up. I've seen songs taught that way, but I find it very slow compared to what I'm actually doing.

To me, it's like tapping your foot. Most of us tap a foot when we play to keep the pulse, but we don't line up our hands with our foot, beat by beat. First foot tap, left hand pinch, and, fret C, second foot tap, pinch... For me, the thumb is like tapping the foot. My understanding was that was the goal, to transfer that unconscious keeping of the beat from the foot to the thumb. Are other people thinking about their foot?

If I'm tapping my foot it's doing quarter notes and will line up with what my hands are doing. It's just that when I tap my foot the beats are emphasized, but the hands aren't, they just flow along. I don't tap my foot to keep time (like a metronome) I just do it sometimes for the heck if it.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by TBman

If I'm tapping my foot it's doing quarter notes and will line up with what my hands are doing. It's just that when I tap my foot the beats are emphasized, but the hands aren't, they just flow along. I don't tap my foot to keep time (like a metronome) I just do it sometimes for the heck if it.

Yes, they will line up because that is the point of playing in time, but you don't consciously match each movement of the hands to an up or down beat with your foot. Some people are talking about purposely matching the melody fingers with the thumb, but I don't do that. I think that's thumb independence in the same way that the foot is usually (not sure about your for-the-heck-of-it foot ) tapping independently.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Yes, they will line up because that is the point of playing in time, but you don't consciously match each movement of the hands to an up or down beat with your foot. Some people are talking about purposely matching the melody fingers with the thumb, but I don't do that. I think that's thumb independence in the same way that the foot is usually (not sure about your for-the-heck-of-it foot ) tapping independently.

Most of the songs I play have the thumb playing quarter notes and the melody is doing quarter notes, eighths etc over the top and there is pinching going on, but not an emphasized pinch, it's just the melody and bass lining up on a beat. A lot of times the bass strikes a note and the melody would start a triplet at the same time; again a pinch on paper, but not played that way. I think maybe the word pinch is being read literally, but in practice it isn't always a pinch with that exaggerated "pop" feel.

[M Hayden]

Doug Jones (aka "LittleBrother", who used to post a lot on guitar forums) wrote a really excellent G blues some years ago designed to teach alternating bass. He was kind enough to show it to me, and I use it a lot when teaching beginners, because it breaks down the process into a couple of relatively easily digestible (assimilable? Dang, need a better word) components that form a pretty clean flow.

His process runs like this, more or less:

1. G-C-D alternating bass only, thumb only, in a 12-bar blues pattern, with a little room for slop and the knowledge that there are different ways to play the thumb notes, depending on how the chords are fingered (like a C/G, or a D/F#)

2. Playing the melody on the same beats as the thumb, in lockstep - so 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4. This gets fingers and thumbs at least working together but there's a smidge of independence.

3. Syncopating the fingers - this takes the rhythm from 1-2-3-4 to 1-2&3-4, 12&34, where the "&" is a syncopated note. It's a small change but it seems to be the hardest part - but when beginners get it, they (usually) REALLY get it.

Once that happens, and the player has some understanding of the syncopation thing, I'll challenge them to transfer the right-hand pattern to other chord sequences, preferably ones they know well - and often they'll do that and find song melodies pretty fast.

Nothing like watching someone get it, though - sometimes it happens when they're practicing at home, and they bring it to the next lesson, all lit with inspiration, and sometimes it happens while we're playing. Just amazing to watch people look at their hands in wonder and realize that, yes, it's THEIR hands playing that

[jfq722]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

If I'm riding a bike, my legs know exactly what to do; I don't think to myself, push down with the right foot, then the left, then the right, etc., so why can't I just make my thumb do the same binary type of operation?

Sounds to me like maybe the alternating and picking - each on their own - might not be second nature yet.

Rather than acclimating to that on the whole song, maybe just do a simple set (with a paper towel stuffed under the strings near the bridge, if you want to practice while watching tv or something)

So on an Am chord:
- thumb bass
- pluck 2nd & 3rd strings with 2nd & 3rd finger simultaneously
- alternate thumb bass
- pluck 2nd & 3rd again

An hour of that straight and I think you'll find it easier.

[s0cks]

For me thumb independence would mean being able to play the thumb on any beat without thinking. Most alternating bass the thumb plays on the downbeat, but what if the bass is on the upbeat? What if I asked you to play the following:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
T     T       T

I can mostly do downbeat alternating bass on autopilot to any melody, but ask me to change the rhythm of the thumb (to something like the above) and I will need some time to figure it out.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

For me thumb independence would mean being able to play the thumb on any beat without thinking. Most alternating bass the thumb plays on the downbeat, but what if the bass is on the upbeat? What if I asked you to play the following:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
T     T       T

I can mostly do downbeat alternating bass on autopilot to any melody, but ask me to change the rhythm of the thumb (to something like the above) and I will need some time to figure it out.

Interesting. It's the unevenness of it and the +1 with two thumb beats that took a minute. I had to put some fill in to play it. But, it would take a minute to get it with my foot, too, so I still think it might be independent.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
T i m T i m a T

This took me a little while to get.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Interesting. It's the unevenness of it and the +1 with two thumb beats that took a minute. I had to put some fill in to play it. But, it would take a minute to get it with my foot, too, so I still think it might be independent.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
T i m T i m a T

To take an existing melody (or new I guess) and then change the bass rhythm with the thumb to different variations would not be something I could do on the fly. I had thought about practicing this, but I only have so much time.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

To take an existing melody (or new I guess) and then change the bass rhythm with the thumb to different variations would not be something I could do on the fly. I had thought about practicing this, but I only have so much time.

That would be interesting though. Do you have any examples on youtube that I could hear?

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

That would be interesting though. Do you have any examples on youtube that I could hear?

No, not specifically. I had written this up for my practice schedule, but it's taken a back seat.

THUMB
1   2   3   4
1 &     3   4
1     & 3   4
1   2 &     4
1   2     & 4
1   2   3 &
1   2   3     &

The idea was to take a melody I know and transpose the different thumb rhythms on top. The first one "1 2 3 4" being your typical alternating bass rhythm. Once I figured them all out I would move onto a new melody until it all became second nature and easy to do for anything. Of course you could have more patterns than the above, but that seemed like a good starting point.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

No, not specifically. I had written this up for my practice schedule, but it's taken a back seat.

THUMB
1   2   3   4
1 &     3   4
1     & 3   4
1   2 &     4
1   2     & 4
1   2   3 &
1   2   3     &

The idea was to take a melody I know and transpose the different thumb rhythms on top. The first one "1 2 3 4" being your typical alternating bass rhythm. Once I figured them all out I would move onto a new melody until it all became second nature and easy to do for anything. Of course you could have more patterns than the above, but that seemed like a good starting point.

Hm, I do that with the drum sometimes but nothing very focused. I'll try it.

[Niko Nixon]

I'm not in the same league as I've just started Finger Picking but I've picked up on this pattern on utube which I can now play with simple chords.
TT+T+T+ or 12&3&4&
Is this in a small way what is being discussed on this thread.. sorry about my notation but we're all learning after all....

[Albert D]

For me it's just repetition. It comes with enough time. I also find that as soon as I start to get sloppy I have to walk away. The next time I pick up the guitar it's easier than ever. I'm speaking as a complete beginner though. I'm still learning to change cords on the fly but throw in some simple fingerstyle exercises every day.