ToneDexter Thread

[buzzardwhiskey]

I need to reduce the severity of my statements on the Lyric equipped CA GXi.

The Tonedexter solution DOES sound more real. Like night and day. What I'm reacting to is the increase in "difficulty" based on how I often play. It's even less of a plug and play solution than the Lyric alone and it was never that to begin with.

[RonD]

Hi everyone,

I'm a happy owner of a new Tondexter (SN #36). Got it late last week and have been trying it out. Some quick details on my setup:

Guitar: Martin 000-18 Custom (Adi top)
Pickup: Anthem SL
Chain: Guitar-->Tonedexter-->TC Acoustic Play-->QSC Touchmix 8-->JBL Eon One

The Tonedexter is intended to replace a Fishman Platinum Pro eq/DI. I've been happy combining the Platinum Pro with the BodyRez feature in the Play Acoustic and have been gigging with this setup for the better part of two years. However, I just couldn't seem to fully remove the "quack" from my tone. It was pretty good overall but I knew I wanted something better.

I've currently trained the ToneDexter using a CAD-M179 large condenser mic, positioned about 20" in front of me and aimed at the 12-14th frets. Training was simple and I think I've arrived at a GREAT tone that dramatically makes the amplified tone sound more natural. I intend to create a few more more wavemaps using my MAudio Sputnik mic. I didn't change the balance setting on the Anthem SL pickup (didn't want to "lose" it's current setting) when training. I'm guessing the setting in the SL is 75% mic/25% UST. Regardless, the ToneDexter seemed to handle this pretty well, although I do sense that the resulting wavemap may be a bit bass heavy.

Regarding BodyRez, I'm experimenting with changing the BodyRez settings in the PLAY Acoustic to the default "Compressor Only" setting (set at level 5). This seems to do a nice job of simply providing some basic compression to the signal and NOT applying any other EQ.

As for the ToneDexter EQ, I've turned down the bass slightly and added a little high end. I am experimenting with the Notch filter (on ToneDexter) to reduce/eliminate a slightly boxy sound I'm hearing in the overall tone, although I'm having a difficult time finding it (it might be around 230Hz?). Maybe the boxiness is a result of my mic placement during the training process so further experimentation is needed.

Overall the amplified tone is a great improvement and definitely has more airiness (I have the "Character" knob set at 12 o'clock). The sound of the wavemap in my IEMs isn't all that impressive (immediately after creating the wavemap), however it sounds much better once amplified through the EON One.

I'm happy with the general "attack" of the tone (using a pick), however it seems that I need a little more effort (or to use the "Boost" button) when fingerpicking (which I rarely do). I did train the ToneDexter using a pick, so maybe a fingerpicked training session is also in order.

I have a gig this weekend and am trying to decide if I should incorporate this into my pedal board (removing the Fishman). I have not experienced feedback issues (yet) running through the EON One and I think it'll be fine, but I really can't mess around with this during the show. Additionally, once I commit to making the switch I'll need to edit the BodyRez settings in roughly 20+ patches on the PLAY Acoustic. And, if I needed to switch back to the Fishman, I wouldn't have time to revert to my current settings. Decisions, decisions.

James, one question I have regarding the "DI fixed/var" button on the back of the ToneDexter. Looking at the back, it would seem that if the switch is set to the left, then it should be in the "fixed" mode (and if set to the right, in the "variable" mode). In actuality, this switch is operating in the opposite directions on my device. Not a major issue, but wanted to see if anyone else noticed this.

Overall, I'm very impressed and looking forward to experimenting with different wavemaps and trying ToneDexter in a live gig setting. I'll report back with my results.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by RonD

I am experimenting with the Notch filter (on ToneDexter) to reduce/eliminate a slightly boxy sound I'm hearing in the overall tone, although I'm having a difficult time finding it (it might be around 230Hz?). Maybe the boxiness is a result of my mic placement during the training process so further experimentation is needed.

I spent 3 hours experimenting with mic placement to get rid of that boxiness and I think I finally got it. For me, the solution was to put the mic (Neumann KM184) VERY close to the fretboard (like 4") at the 10th fret, aimed up at the treble strings from below.

Everyone's placement will be different, but when I couldn't fix the boxiness with the notch, I started playing with mic placements.

[midwinter]

Also: James, my pedalboard weight went from 27.4 lbs to 18.2—all because of the TD.

[James May]

Originally Posted by RonD

...

As for the ToneDexter EQ, I've turned down the bass slightly and added a little high end. I am experimenting with the Notch filter (on ToneDexter) to reduce/eliminate a slightly boxy sound I'm hearing in the overall tone, although I'm having a difficult time finding it (it might be around 230Hz?). Maybe the boxiness is a result of my mic placement during the training process so further experimentation is needed.
...

I would say this is something you will be able to fix by mic position. The notch is very narrow and is only intended to kill a single feedback tone.

Originally Posted by RonD

...

James, one question I have regarding the "DI fixed/var" button on the back of the ToneDexter. Looking at the back, it would seem that if the switch is set to the left, then it should be in the "fixed" mode (and if set to the right, in the "variable" mode). In actuality, this switch is operating in the opposite directions on my device. Not a major issue, but wanted to see if anyone else noticed this.
...

Well, you have successfully discovered a labeling bug! It is indeed backwards. That's what I get for only looking at the unit upside down. We'll fix it on the next batch. Sorry for the confusion.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I spent 3 hours experimenting with mic placement to get rid of that boxiness and I think I finally got it. For me, the solution was to put the mic (Neumann KM184) VERY close to the fretboard (like 4") at the 10th fret, aimed up at the treble strings from below.

Everyone's placement will be different, but when I couldn't fix the boxiness with the notch, I started playing with mic placements.

I should try this. Did you find your images were too muddy before you did it this way?

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

I should try this. Did you find your images were too muddy before you did it this way?

I started with the standard mic'ing position for my particular guitar with my gear (KM184 pointed at the 14thish fret, about 14" out). The result was boxy with a very jangly midrange. I experimented with a bunch of placements and angles, but the most dramatic improvements came when I moved the mic VERY close to the instrument. Same went for my mandolin and banjo.

As I noted upthread, I was running this through a (terrible, terrible 10" Alto) speaker (I'm getting over an injury, so setting up my whole PA with QSC K8s isn't happening right now). If you're playing live, I would strongly urge you to train the TD with your PA rig and not trust the headphones or any recorded tones it might generate; while they might sound good, the real test is how it sounds through a PA. Listen to Buzzardwhiskey's mic'd PA sample upthread; it's a great example of what I'm talking about.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by RonD

Hi everyone,

I'm a happy owner of a new Tondexter (SN #36). Got it late last week and have been trying it out. Some quick details on my setup:

Guitar: Martin 000-18 Custom (Adi top)
Pickup: Anthem SL
Chain: Guitar-->Tonedexter-->TC Acoustic Play-->QSC Touchmix 8-->JBL Eon One

The Tonedexter is intended to replace a Fishman Platinum Pro eq/DI. I've been happy combining the Platinum Pro with the BodyRez feature in the Play Acoustic and have been gigging with this setup for the better part of two years. However, I just couldn't seem to fully remove the "quack" from my tone. It was pretty good overall but I knew I wanted something better.

I've currently trained the ToneDexter using a CAD-M179 large condenser mic, positioned about 20" in front of me and aimed at the 12-14th frets. Training was simple and I think I've arrived at a GREAT tone that dramatically makes the amplified tone sound more natural. I intend to create a few more more wavemaps using my MAudio Sputnik mic. I didn't change the balance setting on the Anthem SL pickup (didn't want to "lose" it's current setting) when training. I'm guessing the setting in the SL is 75% mic/25% UST. Regardless, the ToneDexter seemed to handle this pretty well, although I do sense that the resulting wavemap may be a bit bass heavy.

Regarding BodyRez, I'm experimenting with changing the BodyRez settings in the PLAY Acoustic to the default "Compressor Only" setting (set at level 5). This seems to do a nice job of simply providing some basic compression to the signal and NOT applying any other EQ.

As for the ToneDexter EQ, I've turned down the bass slightly and added a little high end. I am experimenting with the Notch filter (on ToneDexter) to reduce/eliminate a slightly boxy sound I'm hearing in the overall tone, although I'm having a difficult time finding it (it might be around 230Hz?). Maybe the boxiness is a result of my mic placement during the training process so further experimentation is needed.

Overall the amplified tone is a great improvement and definitely has more airiness (I have the "Character" knob set at 12 o'clock). The sound of the wavemap in my IEMs isn't all that impressive (immediately after creating the wavemap), however it sounds much better once amplified through the EON One.

I'm happy with the general "attack" of the tone (using a pick), however it seems that I need a little more effort (or to use the "Boost" button) when fingerpicking (which I rarely do). I did train the ToneDexter using a pick, so maybe a fingerpicked training session is also in order.

I have a gig this weekend and am trying to decide if I should incorporate this into my pedal board (removing the Fishman). I have not experienced feedback issues (yet) running through the EON One and I think it'll be fine, but I really can't mess around with this during the show. Additionally, once I commit to making the switch I'll need to edit the BodyRez settings in roughly 20+ patches on the PLAY Acoustic. And, if I needed to switch back to the Fishman, I wouldn't have time to revert to my current settings. Decisions, decisions.

James, one question I have regarding the "DI fixed/var" button on the back of the ToneDexter. Looking at the back, it would seem that if the switch is set to the left, then it should be in the "fixed" mode (and if set to the right, in the "variable" mode). In actuality, this switch is operating in the opposite directions on my device. Not a major issue, but wanted to see if anyone else noticed this.

Overall, I'm very impressed and looking forward to experimenting with different wavemaps and trying ToneDexter in a live gig setting. I'll report back with my results.

Thanks for reporting on the Anthem SL/ToneDexter combination, Ron. I have an Anthem SL system in one of my guitars, so its a relevant topic to me.

I find that my own Anthem SL is a bit overly strong in the low mids (around the crossover frequency at 250Hz), but it shouldn't matter too much how the Anthem SL system is balanced when used with ToneDexter. Theoretically, at least, the Dexterized signal should sound close to how the training mic signal sounds, whether your pickup is excessively trebly or excessively bassy or whatever. If your Dexterized signal is too bassy, it might have more to do with your training mic's placement than your pickup's tonal balance. I say might because things don't always go according to the theory. I'm hoping that the theory will hold most of the time, because there's a great many poorly balanced pickups that could use the help (including the UST in my old D28).

(Deleted bit about the character knob.)

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Thanks for reporting on the Anthem SL/ToneDexter combination, Ron. I have an Anthem SL system in one of my guitars, so its a relevant topic to me.

I find that my own Anthem SL is a bit overly strong in the low mids (around the crossover frequency at 250Hz), but it shouldn't matter too much how the Anthem SL system is balanced when used with ToneDexter. Theoretically, at least, the Dexterized signal should sound close to how the training mic signal sounds, whether your pickup is excessively trebly or excessively bassy or whatever. If your Dexterized signal is too bassy, it might have more to do with your training mic's placement than your pickup's tonal balance. I say might because things don't always go according to the theory. I'm hoping that the theory will hold most of the time, because there's a great many poorly balanced pickups that could use the help (including the UST in my old D28).

Regarding the "character" knob, we've already observed here that it seems counter-intuitive to some of us. The character effect (reduced ambiance) is off in the fully clock-wise position.

Fully clockwise is the least character? Fully counter clockwise is the most?!

[James May]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Fully clockwise is the least character? Fully counter clockwise is the most?!

The confusion seems to be revolve around what we mean by "character". It was intended to mean mic character. So, counter clockwise has the least mic character, clockwise the most.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Fully clockwise is the least character? Fully counter clockwise is the most?!

My mistake. I was thinking that full "character" was intended to mean the most focused and least ambient sound, a sound which is most useful for cutting through a heavy mix or dealing with a very live room. James has explained that just the opposite is true. Full character (at fully clockwise) is the most mic-like and least tightly focused sound.

[midwinter]

Well now I need to experiment with training again.

[SpruceTop]

When I used a mic for playing out, years ago, I always aimed it at the soundhole and got a nice full tone with the guitar about 6 inches away. If I get a ToneDexter, the soundhole will be my first target for WaveMap training, with a direct, straight-away shot to the mike, and another WaveMap, as James has suggested, generated with the mic a little below the soundhole and aimed upward toward the picking hand. Both initial positions will be about 6" to 8" from the mic. Those positions are where I'll start but, of course, I may end up preferring other mic positions and distances.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

When I used a mic for playing out, years ago, I always aimed it at the soundhole and got a nice full tone with the guitar about 6 inches away. If I get a ToneDexter, the soundhole will be my first target for WaveMap training, with a direct, straight-away shot to the mike, and another WaveMap, as James has suggested, generated with the mic a little below the soundhole and aimed upward toward the picking hand. Both initial positions will be about 6" to 8" from the mic. Those positions are where I'll start but, of course, I may end up preferring other mic positions and distances.

That sounds like a good plan for getting a more tightly focused and less ambient "full character" sound, provided that having the "character" knob set for minimum character isn't already taking you far enough in that direction (when running a WaveMap created with a more typical training mic position).

I tended to prefer the more closely miked and less ambient sounds myself, when using Mama Bear or Aura. For one thing, I think the more ambient sounds were a little more feedback prone.

At one time the terms "close-miked" and "distant-miked" (or something similar) were actually part of the description for Aura sound images. I don't know if that's currently the case, as I haven't messed with Aura for a few years.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Acoustics are a weird thing. Consider carefully listening to a "mix" on separate days before choosing one of them. Case in point, I setup my PA again last night and re-listened to the setup I'd chosen for my Martin...

Martin - ToneDexter - EQ - Compressor - Reverb - ToneDexter - PA

...and I decided that the Compression stunk. Like, really, what was I thinking? I tried a dozen different settings and then removed it completely.