Arranging study group session #1

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Thanks Grinning Boy. I am sure that whatever key you decide to do the tune in, it will be a really fine arrangement.

As for allowing other people to comment, I wrestle with that mainly because it would be (in my personal opinion) best if the folks giving ideas were doing so from real world experience of actually doing arrangements, at least in a study group. However, I am not the last word on this. It isn't my thread - I just started it. So if folks want to let people who are not arrangers themselves, talk about arranging, that is fine with me.

I wrote up my usual "blocked in" arrangement and played through it a few times. The tune, to me, feels like a chord melody - big, lush chords with the melody floating on top, rather than a fingerpicking tune. I think at least part of that is because there is very little syncopation - almost all the melody notes fall on a beat.

Also, some of the chords in the book I got the tune from just didn't sound quite right to me. I used some chord subs in those cases. I need to play through the tune more before doing a video so it at least sounds like something coherent, but a video is forthcoming (forthwith ?).

I should clarify what I mean by "chord subs" here. I agree with Howard Morgan when he says that adding color tones to a chord is not a substitution because it is still the same chord. Using a different chord (even if it is an inversion of the original chord, but serving as a different chord in context) is a substitution (i.e. a G13 is still at heart a G7, while a b5 sub - Db13 IS a sub).

Some people do consider a G13 to be a chord substitution for a G7. Who am I to argue about it? But for me personally, it is easier to keep track of in my mind harmonically, to think of it the way Howard Morgan did.

Tony

So you've already got an arrangement in the works? Now I really want to get home and get going. As it is I'm at work for a while (notice I said "at work" which doesn't mean I'm working!! Guitars are a lot more fun.)

I've gone through many of the Howard Morgen books too. They were very inspirational and instructional to me. I had played only with a flat pick the first 1/2 of my life and when I decided I wanted to learn fingerstyle, he is where I turned. I agree with you on his terminology making sense. Some chords are embellishments and some are substitutions.

When you mentioned b5 sub I had to think about it for a moment. But then it dawned on me that may also be called a tritone substitution? I've really been into using those recently as they're quick to spot on the fingerboard (one string and one fret up from any note on the bass strings).

[EllaMom]

Grinning Boy, this kind of thing is REALLY helpful to me:

"But then it dawned on me that may also be called a tritone substitution? I've really been into using those recently as they're quick to spot on the fingerboard (one string and one fret up from any note on the bass strings)."

I don't know chord "spellings" yet, but little tricks to find ways to embellish or change up the arrangements I am learning....very helpful! The first step to becoming an arranger!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

So you've already got an arrangement in the works? Now I really want to get home and get going. As it is I'm at work for a while (notice I said "at work" which doesn't mean I'm working!! Guitars are a lot more fun.)

I've gone through many of the Howard Morgen books too. They were very inspirational and instructional to me. I had played only with a flat pick the first 1/2 of my life and when I decided I wanted to learn fingerstyle, he is where I turned. I agree with you on his terminology making sense. Some chords are embellishments and some are substitutions.

When you mentioned b5 sub I had to think about it for a moment. But then it dawned on me that may also be called a tritone substitution? I've really been into using those recently as they're quick to spot on the fingerboard (one string and one fret up from any note on the bass strings).

Yessir! b5 sub is tritone substitution. Sorry about that. It is just how I learned t call it.

I feel so fortunate to not have to work anymore, though honestly, it takes a long time to learn to be comfortable not having to get up and go anywhere every day. It feels somewhat "guilty" for a while.

As for the arrangement, I learned this idea of starting with "rules" from Bill Munday's book (which is long out of print). I took it further and made my own approach from it. The main thing it does for me is give me a feel for the tune and also I am never starting with a blank piece of paper - that is HUGE!

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

Grinning Boy, this kind of thing is REALLY helpful to me:

"But then it dawned on me that may also be called a tritone substitution? I've really been into using those recently as they're quick to spot on the fingerboard (one string and one fret up from any note on the bass strings)."

I don't know chord "spellings" yet, but little tricks to find ways to embellish or change up the arrangements I am learning....very helpful! The first step to becoming an arranger!

If this thread goes as I hope it will, it could quite literally become a reference for us as we continue to arrange. It could stick around for a long time and help many more people than actually participate, regardless of how many do. I know that i often use google to find information, and I am sure this thread will turn up in the future for folks looking for information on getting started arranging.

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

Grinning Boy, this kind of thing is REALLY helpful to me:

"But then it dawned on me that may also be called a tritone substitution? I've really been into using those recently as they're quick to spot on the fingerboard (one string and one fret up from any note on the bass strings)."

I don't know chord "spellings" yet, but little tricks to find ways to embellish or change up the arrangements I am learning....very helpful! The first step to becoming an arranger!

Very cool Carol! I'm really glad it was helpful. Someone pointed it out to me as well and it's been fun to incorporate into playing.

What I found very interesting is that they're really the building block for a descending bass line. For example, many (most) tunes move in 4ths to a certain degree. As I mentioned in another thread we were discussing, you can find 4ths going across the string to the next string same fret (e.g E string 7th fret is B, A string 7th fret is up a 4th to E). To get the next 4th, drop back down two frets to the 5th fret on the E string again (A), then back across on the 5th fret to the A string gets you to the next 4th (D) etc. all the way down.

The tritone sub for the 1st 4th (i.e. the sub for the E on the 5th string, 7th fret) is the E string 6th fret (Bb) and vice versa. So instead of moving from say a B7 to an E7th, you use the tritone substitution for the E7 which is Bb7, then move down one fret to the next 4th (A), but instead of then going across and playing the next 4th (D) you move down one fret on the E string to the Ab instead because it is the tritone for D. So each chord descends one fret down the neck and these become substitutions.

Wow it's hard to put notes, strings and frets into writing! I hope I'm making sense of what I'm trying to express

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Very cool Carol! I'm really glad it was helpful. Someone pointed it out to me as well and it's been fun to incorporate into playing.

What I found very interesting is that they're really the building block for a descending bass line. For example, many (most) tunes move in 4ths to a certain degree. As I mentioned in another thread we were discussing, you can find 4ths going across the string to the next string same fret (e.g E string 7th fret is B, A string 7th fret is up a 4th to E). To get the next 4th, drop back down two frets to the 5th fret on the E string again (A), then back across on the 5th fret to the A string gets you to the next 4th (D) etc. all the way down.

The tritone sub for the 1st 4th (i.e. the sub for the E on the 5th string, 7th fret) is the E string 6th fret (Bb) and vice versa. So instead of moving from say a B7 to an E7th, you use the tritone substitution for the E7 which is Bb7, then move down one fret to the next 4th (A), but instead of then going across and playing the next 4th (D) you move down one fret on the E string to the Ab instead because it is the tritone for D. So each chord descends one fret down the neck and these become substitutions.

Wow it's hard to put notes, strings and frets into writing! I hope I'm making sense of what I'm trying to express

The ii V7 I chord progression (example in C: Dmi G7 C) benefits from substitutig the V7 for the b5 sub: Dmi Db7 C, with the associated descending bass line. This is common practice, since ii V7 I appears in so many tunes.

Also, when trying to match up a chord specified in a lead sheet to the given melody note, these don't always fit for one reason or another. Having a handle on chord subs can get you out of difficult situations all the time. Sometimes, choice of cord makes all the difference in how easy a given passage is to play. If all else fails, use a diminished chord. These always sound good, connecting one chord to another. Some tunes, such as "When You Wish" work well with diminished chords all over the place, if done tastefully.

Some call these ideas "cheating". I think of it as "getting it done".

Be prepared for some chord to just sound good, rather than having to have a theoretical explanation for everything. Earl Klugh talks a lot about just playing and looking for new sounds. New sounds are very often sticking chords together that standard practice says won't work.

Uh oh! Are we becoming "theory geeks", or are we already counted among the lost.

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

The ii V7 I chord progression (example in C: Dmi G7 C) benefits from substitutig the V7 for the b5 sub: Dmi Db7 C, with the associated descending bass line. This is common practice, since ii V7 I appears in so many tunes.

Also, when trying to match up a chord specified in a lead sheet to the given melody note, these don't always fit for one reason or another. Having a handle on chord subs can get you out of difficult situations all the time. Sometimes, choice of cord makes all the difference in how easy a given passage is to play. If all else fails, use a diminished chord. These always sound good, connecting one chord to another. Some tunes, such as "When You Wish" work well with diminished chords all over the place, if done tastefully.

Some call these ideas "cheating". I think of it as "getting it done".

Be prepared for some chord to just sound good, rather than having to have a theoretical explanation for everything. Earl Klugh talks a lot about just playing and looking for new sounds. New sounds are very often sticking chords together that standard practice says won't work.

Uh oh! Are we becoming "theory geeks", or are we already counted among the lost.

Tony

They're "tools" not cheating

Most things in my life that I find useful I could never explain how they work!

I really enjoy theory, but I confess I'm not all that good at it. Have you ever checked out the theory group on the Jazz Guitar forum? I'm not certain they're even talking in a recognizable language!

I like your idea of using diminished chords. I can hear in my head how they will sound in "Wish" (we may have to come up with a shorthand title for the 1st song such as "Wish").

And Earl Klugh is a true master. I love his solo stuff and his tone. I went to see him in Chicago quite a few years ago and he was playing "smooth jazz" (i.e. single lines) with a band and I was quite disappointed as he did no solo guitar pieces.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

They're "tools" not cheating

Most things in my life that I find useful I could never explain how they work!

I really enjoy theory, but I confess I'm not all that good at it. Have you ever checked out the theory group on the Jazz Guitar forum? I'm not certain they're even talking in a recognizable language!

I like your idea of using diminished chords. I can hear in my head how they will sound in "Wish" (we may have to come up with a shorthand title for the 1st song such as "Wish").

And Earl Klugh is a true master. I love his solo stuff and his tone. I went to see him in Chicago quite a few years ago and he was playing "smooth jazz" (i.e. single lines) with a band and I was quite disappointed as he did no solo guitar pieces.

The problem I have with the jazz group is that, for me, they go WAY overboard into the intellectual area. I know many of those folks are excellent players, but there is a limit to just how intellectual I want to get about this stuff. Sooner or later, we have to start playing.

I saw Earl Klugh once, back in the early 80s. I love his solo guitar work, but in the concert he had a group with a pounding beat. I can't stand "the big beat" due to some service-connected hearing loss.

Tony

[Nailpicker]

I've loved that song ever since, as a child, I heard Jimminy Cricket sing it in one of Disney's animated shows that used to be on the air Sunday evenings. Short, simple, sweet, straight forward. Two or 3 years ago I decided to start working on a guitar rendition since I don't sing. Below is the first iteration I came up with of that song. I don't bother recording anymore. From the sound of this recording you'll see why. I got the recorder to record songs as base from which to build, kind of like using a voice recorder to quickly store ideas before forgetting them. Plus I became frustrated and resented the time learning to use my recording machine took away from me actually playing. But I did use this recording as well as recordings of a few other songs from which to further build and enhance those songs. My current rendition is obviously built off this first one, but is slightly longer(it is a short song), slightly improved (I hope)and I play it at a slightly quicker tempo. I think WUAS should be played in a fairly simplistic, heartfelt manner...to be faithful to Jimminy, don't you know My wife doesn't like this first rendition, nor how I play it. She thought I should re-record it before posting, but I packed my recorder away and don't bother recording anymore. She's probably right, but I thought I'd post this old version to get the ball rolling on Tony's thread. I'm hoping not to get too embarrassed by it. But I think since it is played quite (too) slowly and is such a very simplistic rendition, it might serve to get things started.

https://app.box.com/s/cxd2ybqf2v6vefppv89xr6nrd0zg1jkf

My process for developing songs is to first hum it audibly or quietly in my mind for some while, sometimes days, weeks or months, before starting in. I rarely use any printed music either notation or tabs, but go by the idea that if I can hum it, I should be able to come up with some rendition to play. It's all about the melody. The key is whatever sounds pleasing to my ear and comes off my fingertips when I first start diddling around with any song. As time passes I just continually try to "improve"/build upon each song. Sometimes I stea...er, borrow something cool sounding that I hear another guitar player do and try to incorporate that into an appropriate song. Other than that I really don't muddy my mind with theory. I fall back on that if/when I get stuck trying to work out a part of the song. As someone else, I think Tony, mentioned, I try not to over-intellectualize building a song. It's guitar playing, not rocket science after all I'm looking forward to hearing others renditions and how they develop WUAS.

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

The problem I have with the jazz group is that, for me, they go WAY overboard into the intellectual area. I know many of those folks are excellent players, but there is a limit to just how intellectual I want to get about this stuff. Sooner or later, we have to start playing.

I saw Earl Klugh once, back in the early 80s. I love his solo guitar work, but in the concert he had a group with a pounding beat. I can't stand "the big beat" due to some service-connected hearing loss.

Tony

I agree. Theory can be interesting but it can also be way overboard. After all we're really talking about a man-made system for organizing and communicating tones, groups of tones and the order of making tones. A person can spend too much time mastering that man made system and not enough time using the tones for their real purpose of making music!

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

I've loved that song ever since, as a child, I heard Jimminy Cricket sing it in one of Disney's animated shows that used to be on the air Sunday evenings. Short, simple, sweet, straight forward. Two or 3 years ago I decided to start working on a guitar rendition since I don't sing. Below is the first iteration I came up with of that song. I don't bother recording anymore. From the sound of this recording you'll see why. I got the recorder to record songs as base from which to build, kind of like using a voice recorder to quickly store ideas before forgetting them. Plus I became frustrated and resented the time learning to use my recording machine took away from me actually playing. But I did use this recording as well as recordings of a few other songs from which to further build and enhance those songs. My current rendition is obviously built off this first one, but is slightly longer(it is a short song), slightly improved (I hope)and I play it at a slightly quicker tempo. I think WUAS should be played in a fairly simplistic, heartfelt manner...to be faithful to Jimminy, don't you know My wife doesn't like this first rendition, nor how I play it. She thought I should re-record it before posting, but I packed my recorder away and don't bother recording anymore. She's probably right, but I thought I'd post this old version to get the ball rolling on Tony's thread. I'm hoping not to get too embarrassed by it. But I think since it is played quite (too) slowly and is such a very simplistic rendition, it might serve to get things started.

https://app.box.com/s/cxd2ybqf2v6vefppv89xr6nrd0zg1jkf

My process for developing songs is to first hum it audibly or quietly in my mind for some while, sometimes days, weeks or months, before starting in. I rarely use any printed music either notation or tabs, but go by the idea that if I can hum it, I should be able to come up with some rendition to play. It's all about the melody. The key is whatever sounds pleasing to my ear and comes off my fingertips when I first start diddling around with any song. As time passes I just continually try to "improve"/build upon each song. Sometimes I stea...er, borrow something cool sounding that I hear another guitar player do and try to incorporate that into an appropriate song. Other than that I really don't muddy my mind with theory. I fall back on that if/when I get stuck trying to work out a part of the song. As someone else, I think Tony, mentioned, I try not to over-intellectualize building a song. It's guitar playing, not rocket science after all I'm looking forward to hearing others renditions and how they develop WUAS.

Wow Nailpicker, that was very enjoyable! I listened to it several times and really liked your feel for it. What a great melody. I liked the harmonics at the beginning and the cascading notes effect at .45 of the recording was very nice. I also really liked the bridge. Very nice. And really nice tone too. It's a great way to kick this thread off! Thanks for sharing it.

[tbeltrans]

I think Grinning Boy nailed it. Your arrangement, Nailpicker, has a great feel to it. Very nice. I like your description of how you work out an arrangement completely be ear, starting with the melody. I never seem to be able to hu a tune all the way through. I seem to remember the main hook, verse or chorus, but seem to falter when trying to remember the rest of it. I have no trouble figuring out a melody by ear from a recording though.

Anyway, nice job!

Tony

[Nailpicker]

Grinning Boy and Tony, thanks for your kind comments. I certainly agree with my wife that I didn't play it the best, nor is it my best rendition of that song, but as I think it was Mark Twain who said something like: "I can live month on a good compliment."

[tbeltrans]

I posted a video of my arrangement of "Moon River" in the Show and Tell section today. The title has something about being my first post there. That is a tune I have been playing for a while, just not on my classical guitar until just recently, since it is a new guitar for me.

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I posted a video of my arrangement of "Moon River" in the Show and Tell section today. The title has something about being my first post there. That is a tune I have been playing for a while, just not on my classical guitar until just recently, since it is a new guitar for me.

Tony

Hey Tony I was just in the Show and Tell section and listened to it several times. Beautiful job! Again we have very similar tastes in music as I love that song myself.

Also after the video YouTube took me to other videos. Was that you playing the Conti guitar on "When I Fall In Love? If so another beautiful job. I also had a Conti guitar at one point and have several of his courses. We travel in the same circles it appears!

When I saw your post here I thought I was going to see your arrangement of "Wish" here. I worked on it last night and may be ready to post a first run soon!

Paul