Improvising around chords?

[Teleman52]

Can't quite wrap my head around this concept, besides some hammer ons and blue notes.

I'm interest in old time and bluegrass improv like Norman Blake does. I'm coming from a blues background where I simply used pentatonics and added notes to get different modal sounds.

This style is completely different and obviously that technique doesn't work. I'm often told that country style guitarist don't use scales so much, that they improvise around the chord shapes I've yet to find anything that explains this concept in a way that I could grasp

[stanron]

Hi Teleman52

It's a subject that comes up every now and then. It's not a simple subject. Ideas can be communicated using music theory terminology but if you don't know the vocabulary it wont be much use.

It falls in to two stages. First you imagine what you want to play. Second you play it.

It sounds very simple, and I'm not being sarcastic, but being able to do it requires the development of several skills. First of all is imagination.

Can you hum to yourself, either out loud or internally, a short melodic phrase, and then find those notes on your guitar? If you can do that, can you invent musical phrases that work over different chord changes? Experimenting with this will introduce you to a range of stuff that gets used in the activity called composing.

Improvisation is composing on the fly. You learn it by trying to do it. Good luck.

[FlyFast]

I found these to be quite helpful.
http://www.littletobywalker.com/blue...g-freedom.html

[T1mothy]

I dont really have any 12345 step tutorial but listening alot helps and also just learning someone elses songs and you will start implementing the ideas used there into your playing / improv naturally.
Tim

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Teleman52

Can't quite wrap my head around this concept, besides some hammer ons and blue notes.

I'm interest in old time and bluegrass improv like Norman Blake does. I'm coming from a blues background where I simply used pentatonics and added notes to get different modal sounds.

This style is completely different and obviously that technique doesn't work. I'm often told that country style guitarist don't use scales so much, that they improvise around the chord shapes I've yet to find anything that explains this concept in a way that I could grasp

Having always improvised from chords - without being taught - I've found it hard to understand the other way (minor pent with occasional added note).

The principle is you start from what you're given. That's the chords, and maybe a melody (vocal or instrumental). You don't have to be able to play the latter, but it definitely helps.
The chords, of course, are what's under your fingers. You would never start soloing on any song if you didn't have all the changes and the form down, by heart. You will have strummed through the sequence several times, ideally in many places on the neck. The chords are your guide, your foundation, your route map. The notes are all there, and you don't need to know anything about scales.

Obviously, on any one chord, there might only be 3 different notes - not much to play with! If chords change quickly (every 2 beats), that can still be enough, but in bluegrass generally that's not the case.
So you need to fill in between chord tones.
You certainly use hammer-ons and blue notes - as you know. That counts as "approaches to chord tones", which can be whole-step or half-step, usually from below. (Half-step approaches can be chromatic, out of key; these are usually blue notes - b3, b5 - but any chord tone, include root, 6th or b7, can be approached from a half-step below.)
That gives you pleny of options, but any other notes you need will be from the chords either side.

Naturally this means you need to know as many shapes for each chord as possible! Every chord can be played anywhere on the neck. Eg, there are 5 shapes for a G chord, within any one 12-fret space. You have to know all of them. Minor chords only have 3 common shapes, but the spaces are filled with arpeggios or partial shapes.
Once you map chord shapes all over the neck, then it's very hard to go wrong. You can choose any 4-5 fret region of the neck and play any chord sequence (in any key) there. And of course solo there if you want.

The idea with improvisation is to plan a phrase, target a chord tone maybe a bar or two ahead. Start on a note on one chord, aim for one on the next chord. Fill in between with a mix of chord tones, approaches, blue notes, whatever. Think phrasing like a singer or horn player (although in bluegrass that kind of "jazz/blues" approach is often secondary to virtuoso chops displays ).

There are various common bluegrass licks that should help pick up the vibe - should be easy enough to find youtube lessons on bluegrass licks. (Normally they're designed to fit one chord, but could be adapted to link across to other chords.)

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by Teleman52

.. that they improvise around the chord shapes ...

The short answer is: You can play any of the notes in the scales associated with the key of the chord you are playing.

The longer answer goes something like this, for starters:

Using a major scale for example:

* the intervals come first (Whole step, Half Step)
W W H W W H W
* the scale comes next:
C D E F G A B C
* then the chord tones
C E G

for a minor pentatonic scale example in C:
* intervals
-3 W W -3 W
* scale notes
C Eb F G Bb C
* chord tones
C Eb G

Many guitarists, me included, learned this backwards.
we were taught the shape that makes a C chord, but didn't learn the alphabet (scale notes) or grammar (intervals) that produced the chord.

It also really helps to know all the notes on the fret board, in every place.

>> this link http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/downloa...e-syllabus.pdf is to a scale syllabus that details all this stuff for every chord variant you could think of, and many you didn't know even existed. Don't let the "jazz" word in the link scare you. It's not just for jazz players!!

the beauty of this chart is an accessible example (in C) for every variant.

yours in tune,
AmyFb

[Earwitness]

Originally Posted by amyFB

The short answer is: You can play any of the notes in the scales associated with the key of the chord you are playing.

The longer answer goes something like this, for starters:

Using a major scale for example:

* the intervals come first (Whole step, Half Step)
W W H W W H W
* the scale comes next:
C D E F G A B C
* then the chord tones
C E G

for a minor pentatonic scale example in C:
* intervals
-3 W W -3 W
* scale notes
C Eb F G Bb C
* chord tones
C Eb G

Many guitarists, me included, learned this backwards.
we were taught the shape that makes a C chord, but didn't learn the alphabet (scale notes) or grammar (intervals) that produced the chord.

It also really helps to know all the notes on the fret board, in every place.

>> this link http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/downloa...e-syllabus.pdf is to a scale syllabus that details all this stuff for every chord variant you could think of, and many you didn't know even existed. Don't let the "jazz" word in the link scare you. It's not just for jazz players!!

the beauty of this chart is an accessible example (in C) for every variant.

yours in tune,
AmyFb

Not sure what the last column is in your linked chart....?

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by stanron

It falls in to two stages. First you imagine what you want to play. Second you play it.

Improvisation is composing on the fly. You learn it by trying to do it.

I've wasted so much time.

[GuitarDogs62]

Originally Posted by Teleman52

Can't quite wrap my head around this concept, besides some hammer ons and blue notes.

I'm interest in old time and bluegrass improv like Norman Blake does. I'm coming from a blues background where I simply used pentatonics and added notes to get different modal sounds.

This style is completely different and obviously that technique doesn't work. I'm often told that country style guitarist don't use scales so much, that they improvise around the chord shapes I've yet to find anything that explains this concept in a way that I could grasp

I am a Bluegrass guitarist and I play the lead accorrding to the key I am playing in. Now let take the G scale, think of the song Dualing Banjo's. The guitars whole lead/Lick comes from the open G scale. Now I most of the time now play in position and play all of my leads and licks from the Key the song is being played in. I can take almost any Bluegrass song and play a lead in any key in one of the Four major postitions and two minor positions. This for the most part is it for me and it sounds very good. I also when working on songs like say will the circle be unbroken I actually figure the song out in position in the key I will play it in. This is simply playing in scale and sounding out the notes that sounds right for the song. Once I lern the song in position I can easily transpose the song to any key. This is how I was taught and it has not failed me.

[ShawnH]

Here's a good exercise to help you if you are familiar with your pentatonics and are trying to have more of a play the changes/chord tone approach - which I believe is what you are asking.

First decide on a basic progression - something like G-G-C-C-G-G-D-D - sort of an 8 bar blues or whatever.

Now pick a position - open or 3rd position would make sense for this one to start. Play through the major pentatonic scale in 8th notes and switch on the chord changes. So 2 bars of G maj pentatonic then 2 bars of C maj pent etc. And when the change happens always go to the next closest note in the new scale. It may be tough to stay in time at first and don't worry about that - get the correct note. I find this to be really valuable for getting those chord tones under my fingers.

Now for a more bluegrass sound add the flat 3 and the flat 7 to the Maj pent scale and do the same thing.

And finally don't forget to compose some solos. Pretty hard to improvise if you can't compose a solo that follows the chords.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by Earwitness

Not sure what the last column is in your linked chart....?

I understand it to be the notes required to make a chord of the name in the first column.

Since this is from a JAZZ source, I feel fairly safe saying to folky, country, bluegrassy players that the first three notes in each of the lines of the last column are the 'main' notes in the chord.

(I think that C E G B D = C9 chord, a common I chord in jazz arrangements)

I use, from this chart, the intervals and the scale note names columns more than anything else.

[JohnDWilliams]

Originally Posted by Teleman52

...I simply used pentatonics and added notes to get different modal sounds.

This style is completely different and obviously that technique doesn't work. I'm often told that country style guitarist don't use scales so much...

The pentatonic scales you are already using should be a place to start. Can you identify why they "obviously" don't work? Are you using a "blues" position/scale where you should be using a major position/scale?

For instance are you doing your A "blues box" on the 5th fret and should be at the 2nd fret? Very simplistic but a pentatonic scale should work in a lot of places and is a pretty good place to start.

Also, everybody uses scales even though they might not know it. Country style guitarists would likely be doing something in a major scale.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I've wasted so much time.

Could be that you can't hear a melody line(?)...without hearing a line it would be hard even with the knowledge of scales and chord/scale relationships.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by amyFB

I understand it to be the notes required to make a chord of the name in the first column.

Since this is from a JAZZ source, I feel fairly safe saying to folky, country, bluegrassy players that the first three notes in each of the lines of the last column are the 'main' notes in the chord.

(I think that C E G B D = C9 chord, a common I chord in jazz arrangements)

C9 has a Bb. C E G B D is Cmaj9.

[delb0y]

Improvising around chords is the main way I use to solo - in fact, I'm almost opposite to the OP inasmuch as I'd like to be able to do it another way. I know my pentatonics - major and minor - and I understand how you can use one, or both, to improvise over, say, a blues, but 90% of the time I use chords. Sometimes it's the chord shape itself (one of the many shapes for any given chord), sometimes the arpeggio or scale, often the melody (which usually follows the chords), and sometimes just notes that are part of the chord linked via (random!) connecting notes or chromatic runs. Pretty much as outlined above in this thread. What other ways to solo are there?

Cheers
Derek