Improving and not stagnating.

[indigomist]

Hi,

So I've just listened to a recording I did 1 year ago, and one I did a few days go. It seems I haven't really improved that much with this song, in regards to the guitar playing.

I have learnt to "sing" over this particular song (Blackwaterside), but while singing the guitar part to this song may have even got worse. There is a tricky bit in this song and when singing along to it I have to do only half of this part and miss out some notes as I can't do it anymore.

Is this because I'm trying to take on too much at once? Should I go back to the beginning?

Thank you

[Scallywag]

This may sound overly simple, but practicing the guitar part with a metronome and only ever with a metronome is the key to the castle. Forget the singing for now, work on that later. Practice only playing the guitar part for a bit. I can't stress it enough... use the metronome. Start slow. Move up a notch every few days until you can play it with your eyed closed. Record yourself to gauge progress. Pocket/groove/rhythm is everything.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by indigomist

Hi,

So I've just listened to a recording I did 1 year ago, and one I did a few days go. It seems I haven't really improved that much with this song, in regards to the guitar playing.

I have learnt to "sing" over this particular song (Blackwaterside), but while singing the guitar part to this song may have even got worse. There is a tricky bit in this song and when singing along to it I have to do only half of this part and miss out some notes as I can't do it anymore.

Is this because I'm trying to take on too much at once? Should I go back to the beginning?

Thank you

Blackwaterside is certainly a challenge (I take it you're working from Bert Jansch's arrangement?).
The secret -as with any song - is to get the vocal working first, and keep the guitar accompaniment simple to begin with. It should go without saying, but the vocal is the most important part. It's a "song" - something you "sing"! Listeners will want to hear the words and tune, performed confidently, first and foremost.
Once you get comfortable with the vocal phrasing - even if you feel it differently from Jansch - then you go back to the guitar, and bring it up behind, as it were. Vocal leads, guitar follows and supports.
That was true even of Jansch; his vocal can seem rudimentary, almost an afterthought, but the guitar part was developed from the melody (and actually includes the melody); and while he certainly focussed on developing that part exclusive of the vocal - it works as an instrumental version of the tune - the intention was always as backing for the song

But while working on it, you can always reserve the full guitar part for an instrumental break, and simplify it behind the vocal, as much as you need to.

Have you heard Anne Briggs version? I guess you know he got the song from her, and they both worked on guitar parts - in the days when it was still a revolutionary idea to add fancy guitar accompaniments to traditional folk songs - but hers is very different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOouYO5tY4
As with any traditional song, the more versions you can source, the more you can pick and choose and make it your own.
Slavishly copying someone else's version is an important learning process, but the idea is to feel your way past that version, and beyond into your own version.

Personally, I learned Jansch's arrangement note for note (because he was my hero!), and practised it over and over until I could do it fairly comfortably. But as I started adding the vocal (and yes I did it that wrong way round! ), Jansch's version started to get pulled and pushed a little, as I tailored the vocal phrasing the way it felt right for me. He did the same thing after all: he didn't plan all those odd bar lengths, he just felt his way through it. I don't think it makes sense to copy his phrasing, beat for beat, any more than it would to try and talk the same way as someone else. (Unless maybe you want to set yourself up as a Bert Jansch tribute act...)
You can still tell I took mine from Jansch, but I do it my way. (I also changed some of his fingering, getting the same notes but in a way that feels easier for me.)
By the way, I would also put "sing" in quotes regarding my own efforts...

[indigomist]

Originally Posted by Scallywag

This may sound overly simple, but practicing the guitar part with a metronome and only ever with a metronome is the key to the castle. Forget the singing for now, work on that later. Practice only playing the guitar part for a bit. I can't stress it enough... use the metronome. Start slow. Move up a notch every few days until you can play it with your eyed closed. Record yourself to gauge progress. Pocket/groove/rhythm is everything.

Good points, I shall try to keep using a metronome so it becomes second nature. Thank you.

Originally Posted by JonPR

Blackwaterside is certainly a challenge (I take it you're working from Bert Jansch's arrangement?).
The secret -as with any song - is to get the vocal working first, and keep the guitar accompaniment simple to begin with. It should go without saying, but the vocal is the most important part. It's a "song" - something you "sing"! Listeners will want to hear the words and tune, performed confidently, first and foremost.
Once you get comfortable with the vocal phrasing - even if you feel it differently from Jansch - then you go back to the guitar, and bring it up behind, as it were. Vocal leads, guitar follows and supports.
That was true even of Jansch; his vocal can seem rudimentary, almost an afterthought, but the guitar part was developed from the melody (and actually includes the melody); and while he certainly focussed on developing that part exclusive of the vocal - it works as an instrumental version of the tune - the intention was always as backing for the song

But while working on it, you can always reserve the full guitar part for an instrumental break, and simplify it behind the vocal, as much as you need to.

Have you heard Anne Briggs version? I guess you know he got the song from her, and they both worked on guitar parts - in the days when it was still a revolutionary idea to add fancy guitar accompaniments to traditional folk songs - but hers is very different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOouYO5tY4
As with any traditional song, the more versions you can source, the more you can pick and choose and make it your own.
Slavishly copying someone else's version is an important learning process, but the idea is to feel your way past that version, and beyond into your own version.

Personally, I learned Jansch's arrangement note for note (because he was my hero!), and practised it over and over until I could do it fairly comfortably. But as I started adding the vocal (and yes I did it that wrong way round! ), Jansch's version started to get pulled and pushed a little, as I tailored the vocal phrasing the way it felt right for me. He did the same thing after all: he didn't plan all those odd bar lengths, he just felt his way through it. I don't think it makes sense to copy his phrasing, beat for beat, any more than it would to try and talk the same way as someone else. (Unless maybe you want to set yourself up as a Bert Jansch tribute act...)
You can still tell I took mine from Jansch, but I do it my way. (I also changed some of his fingering, getting the same notes but in a way that feels easier for me.)
By the way, I would also put "sing" in quotes regarding my own efforts...

Yes Bert's arrangement. And I learnt the guitar part first so putting the vocals over it produced something weird, haha. I'll take your advice on board.

I also learnt his note for note (with aid from your tab, thank you!), but I think I shall get down the vocal part down, then have the guitar follow.

Thanks for the advice, again.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by indigomist

I also learnt his note for note (with aid from your tab, thank you!)

Yes, sorry I didn't remember!

[CoolerKing]

This has also been a problem for me as well. I picked a very tough song that I liked with some wacky jazz chord changes (my favorite things) and forced myself to power through. It has to be a song you like of course.

[mattmontez]

I never practiced with a metronome... but repeatedly hear this from everyone. So I'm definitely buying one and getting into this.

One thing I do to get used to vocals that are hard to play at the same time. I first and foremost slow the tempo right down even if it's almost to a stand still. This gets me phrasing the vocals in the right place. If its still difficult I just hum the vocals so you don't have to worry about lyrics and once I'm confident with that add the lyrics back in.

[CrkrJim]

Yes, all I can do is hum the vocals.....my singing is so bad it's too distracting and will I'll mess up what ever I'm working on..........

The metronome is good when you have the movement down. On thing that I've learned is on a difficult section, slow it way down. I'm talking as if you're in slow motion. This gives the fingers a chance to "learn" exactly what you want them to do.

A few slow motion sessions and I'm ready to get the modest paced metronome going for smoothing the song out.

Good luck!

Jim