Amp too loud for bedroom / not loud enough for gigs

[janmulder]

LONG POST ALARM

Problem: my amp is a bit too loud for bedroom ... not quite loud enough for gigs (... it's important to mention that in each case it is not far off ... just a bit ... and enough for me not to use it for either)

One of my amps is a totally stock Fender Super Champ X2. I am going to start off with some of the issues I have with it so that it will be easier to suggest a solution.

I'll start by saying it is a nice amp and I do like the the sound vs portability ... especially channel 1. However, it is not quite powerful enough for small gigs and at the same time a bit too loud for home practice.

I have my own 'solution' at the end of this post and if you just want to see is if this would work or not (without reading the long post) ... please go to the #### POSSIBLE SOLUTION #### part below.

I'll expand on the issues a little: for gigs, I currently really need to dime it to be heard but at this level it struggles, losing clarity (note definition) and also sounding a bit thin and small. I had a similar sized Marshall Class 5 that was much more comfortable (and a good bit louder) in these circumstances. So it's definitely not a power problem. The Fender just doesn't feel comfortable dimed ... the whole amp, especially the speaker seems to be struggling. My first hunch (I could be totally wrong here) is that it needs a better speaker. I am not concerned about the type of sound produced (clean, crunch or gain etc.) ... whatever it is it should be a good sound in my book. My secondary hunch is the size of cabinet ... but is an open back construction so I'm not sure how mich that affects the sound.

At home it is the classic valve amp syndrome ... you need to have it at or above 2 o'clock to work the power output valves to get a decent sound ... and this for my house, is just a wee bit too loud.

So my first idea was to just replace the speaker with something better like Eminence George Alessandro GA-SC64 (or other) ... which is supposed to sound good and is a good bit more efficient ... or shoehorn a good 12" speaker into it. This wouldn't solve the home use issue but it might be better for gigging ... and home use is not so important as I have other solutions for that I could use.

However, I have heard that through a decent cab it sounds much better for live use ... especially, one with 2 speakers. Unfortunately, in its stock state, if you connect the Fender to a cab the internal speaker is off ... keeping it connected would give you impedance issues as the Fender can't handle 4ohms. This got me thinking of a different solution.

#### POSSIBLE SOLUTION ####

I put a 16 Ohm speaker in the combo and play it like that at home and when I use it for louder gigs ... connect it to a 16 ohm external speaker running both the internal + external together ... 2 x 10 speakers ... both 16 ohms bringing me back to the required 8 ohm load.

My theory (and this is where I am not sure I'm barking up the wrong tree) is that a 16 ohm speaker in the combo would reduce the volume a bit for better home use ... and running 2x10 speakers for live would enhance the sound ... better speaker than stock and two of them.

If this would work, then the next question would be what speakers to use ...

What are the thoughts of yawl on this board?

[Steve DeRosa]

My thoughts:
Home - Check out an Eminence Maverick (American)/Reignmaker (British) 12" speaker, and find a way to shoehorn it into your cab; no impedance matching problems, and with the built-in attenuator you can dial back the volume as necessary without affecting tone
Stage - Find (or build) an empty 2x12" cab and load a pair of these wired in parallel:

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...=Texas_Heat_16

Should give you the extra efficiency/volume you need for just about any room...

[Paleolith54]

Steve seems pretty knowledgeable about this type of thing, but I can't imagine that speakers will solve your problem. I may be wrong, though.

Why not just mic it? It has a Line Out and a Speaker Emulated line out (if I am reading the specs right): can't one of these just go to the board? This is just a general observation, I don't know what you play and where. It may be that you just need a better amp.

For home use, turn the volume down and get a decent pedal to give you a sound close to what you're trying to get. So many people wax rhapsodic about power tube distortion that they send others off on a time-wasting quest that few have the space or ear protection to achieve.

[Bob Womack]

I've taken another direction entirely: I gave up on finding a tube amp for home bedroom levels. They all drive me out of the room, right down to the 5 watt ones. I've gone to using a modeler for civilized home levels and amps for public appearances. A good modeler allows a good operator to get excellent sounds without all the racket.

Bob

[Tomm Williams]

Easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get a larger bedroom

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Paleolith54

...It has a Line Out and a Speaker Emulated line out (if I am reading the specs right): can't one of these just go to the board? This is just a general observation, I don't know what you play and where. It may be that you just need a better amp.

For home use, turn the volume down and get a decent pedal to give you a sound close to what you're trying to get. So many people wax rhapsodic about power tube distortion that they send others off on a time-wasting quest that few have the space or ear protection to achieve.

Wasn't aware that it had a speaker-emulated DI - if there are enough channels on the board that would have been my first choice...

As far as the latter is concerned, the built-in attenuator in the two Eminence speakers I suggested serves to decrease the efficiency (over a 10dB range as I recall) which will in fact allow you to achieve genuine power-stage distortion, at levels ranging from desktop to small stage; bear in mind that many owners of high-power amps utilize a power soak between the output and speaker for exactly the same reason...

Then again, you may just need a new amp...

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I've taken another direction entirely: I gave up on finding a tube amp for home bedroom levels. They all drive me out of the room, right down to the 5 watt ones. I've gone to using a modeler for civilized home levels and amps for public appearances. A good modeler allows a good operator to get excellent sounds without all the racket...

Your age is showing, Bob...

Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

Easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a larger bedroom...

This guy's got the right attitude...

[Paleolith54]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

... bear in mind that many owners of high-power amps utilize a power soak between the output and speaker for exactly the same reason...

:

Yep, I understand power soaks (well, attennuators in particular) but didn't know you could achieve that with less-efficient speakers (well, I wouldn't have thought enough to make much difference). Cool!

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Paleolith54

Yep, I understand power soaks (well, attenuators in particular) but didn't know you could achieve that with less-efficient speakers (well, I wouldn't have thought enough to make much difference). Cool!

Here ya go:

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...model=Maverick
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...del=Reignmaker

[janmulder]

Thanks for all the replies ... it has given me a few ideas ... but for other amps

What I'm really wondering is whether putting a 16 Ohmer in would make any sense ... maybe even a less efficient one ... and then using a 1x12 16 Ohm extension for the occasion I need it.

The questions mulling around my head are: Would a 16 Ohmer sound OK in the amp? Would 2 x 16 Ohm speakers sound any better / louder / fuller than a really good efficient 8 Ohmer alone?

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Check out an Eminence Maverick (American)/Reignmaker (British) 12" speaker, and find a way to shoehorn it into your cab.

Thanks. Great link ... didn't know about them. Putting a 12" in is not easy ... but doable. Unfortunately, you need to cut a little bit off the speaker ... so something I need to be really sure will work. But definitely something I'll be looking at for 12" amps and cab.

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Stage - Find (or build) an empty 2x12" cab and load a pair of these wired in parallel:[/url]

If I start lugging around a 2x12 cab plus Super Champ I have other bigger solutions that will get me there. What I like about the Super Champ is its size. Making it gig worthy on its own would be great and adding only a small 1x12 extension when needed would be acceptable ... but to not bypass the amp speaker I'd need a 16 Ohmer inside the amp.

Originally Posted by Paleolith54

Why not just mic it?

This is for when I can't do this ... small stage/bar or just jamming with the lads etc.

Originally Posted by Paleolith54

It has a Line Out and a Speaker Emulated line out (if I am reading the specs right): can't one of these just go to the board?

The line out sounds terrible ... really terrible. It's the output stage that gives this amp its great sound and the line out bypasses this.

Originally Posted by Paleolith54

For home use, turn the volume down and get a decent pedal to give you a sound close to what you're trying to get.

I actually want the amp sound. I have loads of pedals and can get some really great sounds with all the gear I have but this is not the issue here ... I want the sound of this amp.

Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

Easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get a larger bedroom

LOL ... my original post probably made it sound like I was a student and really played in the bedroom ... but really I can choose between many quite large rooms in the house and even in the cellar or attic ... but you can still hear it several houses down the street ... maybe I need to buy a new house ... but I'll try speakers first ... (I'll probably also look into sound proofing a room for practice ... but that's another project altogether)

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Then again, you may just need a new amp...

if this was my only amp then you'd be right. Fortunately I have other amps I can play with. However, I want to see if I can make it work with *this* amp ... and if at the end of the day I can't or it is too expensive I'll probably get rid of it. It's a project ... how to get *this* amp gig worthy, and if at the same time I can sort the attenuation for home then even better.

The thing is I like the basic tone you can get out of it together with its small size. The Blues Jr is gig worthy but I can't get much clean headroom (but I like the idea of modding one with one of those Eminence Mavericks ) and I just don't gel with the Pro Jr. sound.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Dakedi

...The Blues Jr is gig worthy but I can't get much clean headroom (but I like the idea of modding one with one of those Eminence Mavericks)...

Solution to the clean headroom problem:

• Tubes: http://www.thetubestore.com/Shop-by-...remium-Package
  Order the highest number power tubes they have, as well as matched triodes in all your preamp tubes (well worth the extra $5 per) - if you still need more clean headroom swap a NOS/JAN 5751 in V1
• Speaker: http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...el=Swamp_Thang
  This one'll fatten/clean up your tone big-time - and you'll be able to keep up with a hard-hitting drummer (or a rhythm guitarist with a Super Reverb) with no problem

I've got this exact tube/speaker complement in my Bugera V22, so I'm speaking from experience here; it handles a 600-700 seat house clean as you need or dirty as you want, and hangs with my '65 Super RI and blackface Frontman 212R (100W) with no problem - you might want to investigate this route for a compact gigging combo...

[Woodstock School Of Music]

Check out a Fender Mustang III v2. I've have a XD and while it's a cool little amp for certain things the Mustang is much more flexible for gigs and bedroom volumes. I own several tube amps but I'm really digging the Mustang and ten years ago if you would have told me I'd own a solid state amp let alone a modeler I would have laughed in your face.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Your age is showing, Bob...

Nah, I'm showing my vocation. As a recording engineer/producer, I can't afford to irradiate my ears anymore. Got to keep the professional instruments working.

Bob

[janmulder]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Solution to the clean headroom problem:

• Tubes: http://www.thetubestore.com/Shop-by-...remium-Package
  Order the highest number power tubes they have, as well as matched triodes in all your preamp tubes (well worth the extra $5 per) - if you still need more clean headroom swap a NOS/JAN 5751 in V1
• Speaker: http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...el=Swamp_Thang
  This one'll fatten/clean up your tone big-time - and you'll be able to keep up with a hard-hitting drummer (or a rhythm guitarist with a Super Reverb) with no problem

I've got this exact tube/speaker complement in my Bugera V22, so I'm speaking from experience here; it handles a 600-700 seat house clean as you need or dirty as you want, and hangs with my '65 Super RI and blackface Frontman 212R (100W) with no problem - you might want to investigate this route for a compact gigging combo...

Thanks for the info. I will looking into that one in the future I'm sure. As for speaker choice ... I would want the Blues Jr to be a little less middy and a little smoother in sound ... I already know it gigs well ... just a little more clean headroom and less middly tone would be great.

For now, however, I'm still looking what to do with the Super Champ ... so that I don't need to sell it. I have been asking around about putting a 16 Ohm speaker in there and I'm getting a lot of head shakes. The basic vibe I'm getting is that if the amp is designed to take 16 Ohm loads then it would be OK but the sound would change (more than an attenuation of sound) ... usually in the direction of less bass, more middly and trebly (definitely not what I am looking for) ... and if the amp is not designed for 16 ohm loads (and there is no indication that this one is) then the end result is not predictable. So it looks like this route is out

So, I'm left with a speaker replacement.

I love the idea of a 12" ... not sure it would like such a small enclosure though ... and there is the cutting one edge off the speaker that I'd need to do.

As for 10" replacements ... I heare good things about the Eminence Alessandro, and Eminence Legend. I'd be looking to take the slightly tiring trebles this amp pushes out at higher volumes and generally smoothing things out and making it clearer ... I hear the Legend is more in this direction.

Then there are the Celestion offerings ... all I really know is the Vintage 30 is out. But I don't know what the different colour backs are about

Check out the Fender Mustang...

Thanks ... but, again, I'm not looking for a different amp ... I have other amps. I'm looking to see what I can do to *this* amp.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Dakedi

...I would want the Blues Jr to be a little less middy and a little smoother in sound...I already know it gigs well...just a little more clean headroom and less middly tone would be great...

As for 10" replacements...I heard good things about the Eminence Alessandro and Eminence Legend. I'd be looking to take the slightly tiring trebles this amp pushes out at higher volumes and generally smoothing things out and making it clearer...I hear the Legend is more in this direction.

Then there are the Celestion offerings ... all I really know is the Vintage 30 is out. But I don't know what the different colour backs are about...

In order:

• The Eminence Swamp Thang is exactly what you're looking for: definitely less midrangey and way smoother than the stock speaker, not to mention far more efficient (which translates to less power needed for a given volume level, which translates to more clean headroom - gotta give it a good 50+ hours of break-in time for it to really come into its own, though) - and when you get those Soviet-era mil-spec tubes I suggested into the equation, well...
• If you're looking for something smoother/mellower in a 10" speaker check out the Eminence Lil' Buddy, the baby brother to the 12" Cannabis Rex hemp-cone - more purely "American" in tonality than the hybrid-voiced Legend, which leads me to...
• If you need to dial back the mids and "slightly tiring" trebles - especially in an EL84-equipped amp - the one thing you don't want is a Celestion; they're great for heavier styles (where many American-voiced speakers can get muddy and indistinct) or brightening up a dark-sounding amp and/or guitar, but IME you're not going to get any bass/low-mid support unless you use them in multiples (think Vox AC30/Marshall Bluesbreaker, or the iconic 4x12" Marshall cab) and really push them - and since you're thinking downsize in terms of both size/weight and wattage, IMO it would be self-defeating...

[The Kid!]

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