Dealing with Mic bleed after getting new mikes.

[Mischief]

Okay so I'm wanting to record guitar and vocal at the same time. I bought a ribbon mic I like on my voice. My recording space is not specifically treated and many advised against the ribbons 8 pattern when I was inquiring what mikes I should get for my guitar.
I've ended up with two cardioid LDC (one is DOA but being dealt with) so I set up the LDC on guitar and ribbon on Vox. **** the bleed is very prominent from vocals into the guitar mic. Gain set as low as possible mic placed 7" from guitar pointed down to guitar lower bout and at about 10th fret (12 feet guitar aimed below the 12-14fret area on the guitar) sang quieter with closer vocal mic. Still it bleeds. Even positioning my vocal further away and leaning in to try and be even further towards the null of the guitar mic.

I know I can embrace the bleed but bleed was not an issue with the 8 pattern positioned correctly.

Have I just traded one potential problem of bad room sounds which I don't even know if existed for cross bleed (which also may not be as much of an issue as I think)?

My plan was going to record guitar in stereo so it will likely become worse.

With one LDC, DOA I can exchange the pair and upgrade to another higher price mic with multiple patterns without issue other then more cost and I'd already blown the budget.


Not sure what I should do, I was really hoping to record in stereo. With one take. I do not do individual tracks very well.

As background info.
I record in the only spot I can which is in my quarters in the aft of our small sailboat. It's sit room only and enough room for the mic stand and recording gear on the bed. It's tight so my positioning is limited. Having said that its a relatively quiet space. But once I get recording maybe I will start to notice issues I don't hear at the moment.

Any suggestions? Should I stick with matched LDC cardioid or trade for a single multi pattern mic?





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[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mischief

...bleed was not an issue with the 8 pattern positioned correctly.

I saw the picture of the room. It's tiny and untreated. I don't see how it's possible that bleed wasn't an issue with the ribbon.

But the obvious solution is to record guitar and vocals separately. Granted, it's awkward at first and some will complain that they can't play with the same feel. I made those complaints too when I first tried it. But it really is just a matter of getting used to the process.

The upside to doing it that way is you get zero bleed. You can concentrate on a better guitar performance without worrying about vocals at the same time (and vice versa regarding a better vocal performance). Punching in fixes becomes much easier since you don't have to match both guitar and vocals every time.

[Mischief]

I will try and learn to play separately as it could really help my playing
and singing.

However my plan is to have my compact studio quick and easy to set up play a song as a single take and be recording fast. Ideally I'll learn how to get good tracking so that with minimal mixing I could have a song ready to show as an example quickly, from there ready to be mastered in a few more hours.

I know I have a long way to go to get to that point. I'm just worried dealing with bleed will add so much time to the process. Or I'll have to lay a scratch track then guitar then vocals. Which also will add a lot of time.

If I position my ribbon with the null at the guitar often positioned overhead and angled so the null (by tracking is at its quietest) I'll sing off axis just slightly as I don't use a pop filter on my ribbon. And the mic ends up in that position for the null effect to be strongest. I'm also singing softer then it may sound on my recordings I keep my gain as low as possible on the mic and even playing the guitar quite dramatic I'd say the bleed is maybe 75% lower then the bleed I get through the LDC in the same situation. There's still bleed but it's quiet enough it seems like it's not problematic the bleed also sounds okay like it can add to the track if I mix properly.

Is it basically a matter of;
1) LDC= bleed and best to overdub my tracks?
2) fight with bleed embracing and working as much as possible with it.

3) take my chances with an 8 pattern.

I'm starting to think having a single multi pattern LDC for the guitar may be better then a matched pair of cardioid LDC. But maybe I'm jumping the gun here. I'm just nervous I might miss the opportunity to swap out these mikes.

Or I'll swap and end up with a single mic and outgrow the single wishing I had kept the matched pair.

My heads spinning......



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[Ty Ford]

Gain set as low as possible mic placed 7" from guitar pointed down to guitar lower bout and at about 10th fret (12 feet guitar aimed below the 12-14fret area on the guitar) sang quieter with closer vocal mic. Still it bleeds. Even positioning my vocal further away and leaning in to try and be even further towards the null of the guitar mic.


Move the guitar mic to about 3 inches from the neck joint. Point it almost directly down to the floor. If you have to look at your chording hand when you play, it's be more of a problem than if you can look straight out.

Regards,

TyFord

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Okay so I'm wanting to record guitar and vocal at the same time. I bought a ribbon mic I like on my voice. My recording space is not specifically treated and many advised against the ribbons 8 pattern when I was inquiring what mikes I should get for my guitar.
I've ended up with two cardioid LDC (one is DOA but being dealt with) so I set up the LDC on guitar and ribbon on Vox. **** the bleed is very prominent from vocals into the guitar mic. Gain set as low as possible mic placed 7" from guitar pointed down to guitar lower bout and at about 10th fret (12 feet guitar aimed below the 12-14fret area on the guitar) sang quieter with closer vocal mic. Still it bleeds. Even positioning my vocal further away and leaning in to try and be even further towards the null of the guitar mic.

I know I can embrace the bleed but bleed was not an issue with the 8 pattern positioned correctly.

Have I just traded one potential problem of bad room sounds which I don't even know if existed for cross bleed (which also may not be as much of an issue as I think)?

My plan was going to record guitar in stereo so it will likely become worse.

With one LDC, DOA I can exchange the pair and upgrade to another higher price mic with multiple patterns without issue other then more cost and I'd already blown the budget.


Not sure what I should do, I was really hoping to record in stereo. With one take. I do not do individual tracks very well.

As background info.
I record in the only spot I can which is in my quarters in the aft of our small sailboat. It's sit room only and enough room for the mic stand and recording gear on the bed. It's tight so my positioning is limited. Having said that its a relatively quiet space. But once I get recording maybe I will start to notice issues I don't hear at the moment.

Any suggestions? Should I stick with matched LDC cardioid or trade for a single multi pattern mic?





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Some questions and thoughts .

First what does " (12 feet guitar aimed below the 12-14fret area on the guitar) mean ?

Second are you using Headphones when recording ?

If you like the sound of the ribbon on your voice, then why LDC pair for the guitar, why not SDC pair ? ( in general SDC will not pic up quite as much off axis bleed from the vocal or room )

You do seem to be jumping all over the place in terms of trying things. Using the Ribbon in an 8 pattern etc.

I suggest before you make a decision about changing the LDC's try this first:

Do guitar sound tests ( no vocal)
Set up the LDC play
Set up the ribbon (same cardioid pattern as LDC) play
Set up the ribbon in 8 and play
Get the track levels matched as close as possible, and see what the difference is, and if you think it's worth keeping the LDC for that difference.

Do the same thing with vocal
Make sure you actually like the ribbon vocal sound better than the LDC and why .

Understand may have to reexamine your goals

Understand everything in recording is a matter of compromise
What your going through is trying to figure out which compromises you are going to go with.

Understand that it is no surprise the the LDC on the guitar will pic up more sound including bleed from the vocal, than virtually any other type of mic ( that is the specific purpose of a large diaphragm, to pic up more sound)
Again what is the specific thinking of LDC over SDC ? Honestly if it were me (with no other undisclosed considerations) I would send the LDC's back and trade for a pair of SDC's

Understand that trying to sing and play at the same time, has definite advantages and disadvantages

Advantage= playing and singing is the most natural for anybody who has done so for any length of time. Also it is an advantage in terms of both timing with the vocal and the interplay of voice and guitar.

Disadvantage = even in the the best circumstances of room and equipment, playing and singing is always a problem with bleed and always a bit more compromised mixing situation .

Understand that in your small space and sitting down (while trying to record playing and singing at the same time) it is even more of a problem.

So given the situation of your space your are going to have to compromise something.

If it were me I would stop trying to have it all at once.

If I want to have a quick set up to lay down tracks (in the muse) , I would simply put up one mic period, and play and sing into that and forget trying to have that also be ready for prime time and Mastering

If I want to have something to go prime time and for Mastering. I would play into a pair of SDC mics and get the guitar track first, then I would put up the vocal mic and dub that to the guitar. This will give you something that has a much better mixing possibility and capability for prime time , IMO

[Mischief]

Thanks Ty, I will try moving the mic even closer and pointing down further. I suppose it still needs to sound good on the guitar so I'll see if that's nice sounding or not.

Kev,
To clarify. It's a 12fret guitar so when I'm pointing between the 12-14 fret it's a little in from the neck join pointed towards the bottom upper bout ( does that make sense?) I don't mean the lower larger bout of the guitar but the area that would be a cutaway if it were a cutaway guitar.

Yes I'm using headphones when recording but only as monitors. I don't think I'm getting any bleed from them.

As far as the ribbon it has only one pattern the figure 8. Originally I was planning to run 3 ribbons all fig 8. One for vocal and 2 for guitar.

I've since decided to experiment with the LDC. I do like them so far for vocal.

I think what made me steer away from the ribbon pair for guitar is fear of my room acoustics and versatility. So then I started looking into SDC. I ended up going LDC because I thought they would be more versatile then SDC and easier to work with.
But in my circumstances maybe not.

Looks like I have more experimenting to do and heaps of thinking.......




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[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Thanks Ty, I will try moving the mic even closer and pointing down further. I suppose it still needs to sound good on the guitar so I'll see if that's nice sounding or not.

Kev,
To clarify. It's a 12fret guitar so when I'm pointing between the 12-14 fret it's a little in from the neck join pointed towards the bottom upper bout ( does that make sense?) I don't mean the lower larger bout of the guitar but the area that would be a cutaway if it were a cutaway guitar.

Yes I'm using headphones when recording but only as monitors. I don't think I'm getting any bleed from them.

As far as the ribbon it has only one pattern the figure 8. Originally I was planning to run 3 ribbons all fig 8. One for vocal and 2 for guitar.

I've since decided to experiment with the LDC. I do like them so far for vocal.

I think what made me steer away from the ribbon pair for guitar is fear of my room acoustics and versatility. So then I started looking into SDC. I ended up going LDC because I thought they would be more versatile then SDC and easier to work with.
But in my circumstances maybe not.

Looks like I have more experimenting to do and heaps of thinking.......




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Yes in general an LDC has the advantage of being usable for both instrument and voice.

I would first decide if I wanted to use the LDC for the vocal, if you do then
you could try using the other LDC and the ribbon on the guitar as your stereo pair

Ty's idea about pointing the LDC down is excellent as it puts the most off axis part of the cardioid up towards your mouth. Or you could put the ribbon on the neck body joint with the null up and put the other LDC towards the back of the guitar try it also angled down and out from the lower bridge area

[Br1ck]

I would do one of two things. Get one good large diaphragm condenser and place it out three feet and record both vocal and guitar in glorious mono.

Get two matching small diaphragm condensers, or a stereo mic. Record the two small condensers in xy configuration.

I get good results with a large condenser in my face, a small condenser a foot out pointed at guitar, and a Dazzo pickup into a third channel. I can blend the
pickup signal with the small condenser. The Dazzo sounds very good.

The trick is to get a blend that does not need fixing. The verb added to the vocal mic is usually enough for the whole mix.

KISS is a good philosophy when recording like this.

[Mischief]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

I would do one of two things. Get one good large diaphragm condenser and place it out three feet and record both vocal and guitar in glorious mono.



Get two matching small diaphragm condensers, or a stereo mic. Record the two small condensers in xy configuration.



I get good results with a large condenser in my face, a small condenser a foot out pointed at guitar, and a Dazzo pickup into a third channel. I can blend the

pickup signal with the small condenser. The Dazzo sounds very good.



The trick is to get a blend that does not need fixing. The verb added to the vocal mic is usually enough for the whole mix.



KISS is a good philosophy when recording like this.

Thanks,
First up I haven't had too much time to work with miking the guitar. I did get my multi pattern LDC vocal mic and was surprised how good the null was on it in cardioid. Really deep but not until 3/4 around. Figure 8 the null was on the side but did not seem quite as deep. But in cardioid I'd say the null is at least as deep as on my ribbon mic.

So I'm going to experiment with that and if I can work a good position on it maybe I'll just record in mono and mix some of my Pickup (which is a lyric and I'm sure I can EQ a good sound out of it for recording.) or I could try MS and use the LDC in 8 pattern or my ribbon and use the DI signal as my mid channel. I'd have to experiment with it.

I think some of these suggestions will help me
With using the LDC and also not being totally hung up on stereo.

My main reason for wanting stereo is because my playing is meh and being just vocal and guitar I thought it would add some interest and liven up the listening experience. But maybe I can accomplish that with some mixing tricks and panning?

I agree I want to keep it as simple as possible but as complicated as necessary.



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