Using condenser mikes on guitar and Ribbon on vocal okay?

[Mischief]

Thanks Ty, yes I do better when I stand. Also I noticed when I used to monitor with my other now defunct headphones I was not as pitchy. So I'm looking to get some AKG 702 cans. Not sue if that will help but my the cans I'm using are distracting.

But definitely I agree I need more air.
I'm actually recording suing in the aft cabin of our small sailboat. I have very limited space to even have the mikes let alone adjust but I'm doing what I can. Once I get a good handle on it I'll try and get some space to record where I can stand.

As far as mics go do you think a ribbon would be a good match on the guitar or SDC?

Thank you very much for your critique I'll work on those points.

Cheers
Shawnee


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[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Mischief

As far as mics go do you think a ribbon would be a good match on the guitar or SDC?

Ribbons are fun, exotic, a cool flavor to work with *after* you have things nailed with condensers and you're looking for something different. At this point, I'd suggest not getting sidetracked on exotic and unusual, I'd focus on getting a decent condenser mic (or 2) and learning to use it. Most of what you hear on recordings is condensers. I'd vote to master that first.

[Mischief]

Hi Doug thanks for the input.
Are you saying that condensers will be easier to work with to start?
The reason I was leaning to ribbon in the first place is I thought my vocals could use smoothing and the characteristics of a ribbon would suit the music I like which is like; Hank Williams, George Jones, Conway Twitty, Hank Snow, Randy Travis, Alan Jackson etc.
The reason I was thinking Ribbon in guitar was to;

1. Match that ribbon sound on guitar as I was not sure if otherwise it would clash. Plus the guitar is small body and thought the ribbon would thicken the sound.

2. And this is one of the reasons I'm really hung up on ribbons. After reading everything I can and I'm pretty sold on the idea and pros of sing a figure eight pattern and the options of stereo recording with them. There seems no substitute for how a ribbon produces that deep null and how it can be used vs dual condenser figure eight pattern again mane I'm wrong here too.

Having said that I'm a noob as you can see. So I am likely delusional in my thinking. Because until very recently I had never even seen anything but a dynamic mic let alone used anything but one.

To me I don't consider a ribbon exotic. Seems to me they were the main go to mic, an industry standard for years and back when you didn't have the choice of active so I figure they would have been more difficult to deal with then a modern active ribbon.

Now that I said that, I will say again I'm a complete noob to recording and if condensers will be easier to learn how to use then I'm all for it.

I really appreciate the insight of everyone.

Cheers



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[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Hi Doug thanks for the input.
Are you saying that condensers will be easier to work with to start?

I think they will be. It depends on your ribbon, but generally ribbons require high gain preamps. They are also usually figure 8 mics, so they tend to pick up more of your room - not good unless you have really good acoustics.

Ty's a better one to speak to ribbons for voice, and of course, they represent that classic sound from the 40s and 50s, but there's more that goes into that sound than just plugging in a ribbon. If it was me, I'd just focus on getting a solid recording, it may take a while before you're to the point of trying to fine-tune and select the best mic for your voice. I'm not sure what your budget is, but keep in mind that the vocals you're calling out were likely recorded on mics that aren't inexpensive.

1. Match that ribbon sound on guitar as I was not sure if otherwise it would clash. Plus the guitar is small body and thought the ribbon would thicken the sound.

I don't think different mic types will clash. Ribbons do (usually - it depends) have a darker sound, so if that's an issue, a ribbon might help on the guitar. That's not your current problem - your guitar is very dark, distant and muddy. It needs more presence on the recording I listened to. This is probably due to room acoustics - just guessing. That's the hard part of any home recording project.

There seems no substitute for how a ribbon produces that deep null and how it can be used vs dual condenser figure eight pattern again mane I'm wrong here too.

OK, if that's the reason for a ribbon, because you're trying to record guitar and voice at the same time and use the nulls, that makes sense. You can get figure 8 nulls with a condenser, but figure 8 condensers tend to be pricier than many ribbons. At the same time, I'd consider that an advanced technique. Just listening to your tracks, I'd focus on some basics first. In a good room, you should be able to just put up a single mic and record both guitar and voice and have it sound quite nice. I think Ty's done some of those, maybe he can post some examples.

But if you really want to go with ribbons and know the technique you want to use, dive in and just get it working for you. There's very little right or wrong in recording, it's only about how it turns out in the end. I like ribbons a lot, I have, let's see, 3 stereo ribbons and 2 regular ribbons - more ribbons than I have condensers, I guess. And I often mix them, a pair of condensers mixed with a stereo ribbon works really well for me. There's no "clash", just different tones to work with. But I do find it to be more work to get a ribbon to sound right on guitar than using a pair of condensers.

[Mischief]

Thanks Doug for being patient with me.
I get exactly what your saying. My budget is nill but that never stopped me. Lol.
I figure I could muster max $600 AUD for a pair. Less would be better but I don't want to buy mikes that I will outgrow and want to replace in short order.
Seems like two cheap condensers to stereo mic the guitar would be cheaper then two ribbons.

Or I could buy one more active ribbon to use as a side mic and use the DI guitar signal as the mid signal? I've not exactly heard of anyone doing this but can't see why it may not work.

Or I could buy a condenser for my vocals use my ribbon for the side and DI for mid signal.

Maybe I could buy 3 worthwhile condensers for under $600?

Okay I've got a lot of thinking to do.

What I can say is I'm pretty disappointed in what I capture at the moment and have a strong desire to get to the point that I can make music that people are as happy to listen to as I am to share.

Cheers


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[Doug Young]

My advice to anyone getting started recording these days would be to start with one of the simple all-in-one recorders, one of the Zoom's, Tascams, Sony's, etc. A Zoom H2 will run $150, while stepping up to, say, an H5 might be $250, with built-in mics. These things are fool-proof, like a point and shoot camera. Sit it a foot or 2 feet out in front of you and hit record. It should sound very good. If it doesn't, something else is wrong -most likely your room acoustics. Until you figure that out, and either somehow fix the acoustics, find a location with better acoustics, or learn where to place the recorder to work around the acoustics and make it sound good, no gear you can buy will really sound better. When you get it happening for you, you can always add better mics (at least if you go the route of one that supports external mics). You can always mix and EQ, add reverb, etc (use Audacity - free - or Reaper - $60) to polish up the tracks.

[ChuckS]

Doug's last response is the path I took. At that time it was the zoom h4. Easy to set up and get pretty darn nice recordings. I'd add an external mic or two occasionally, when I wanted to experiment. Even though I've upgraded, having a quick and portable recorder is still nice to have. I started using audacity on the pc and now use reaper.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mischief

My recording mic locker is one active ribbon and one dynamic. So nows the time to buy some mikes for the guitar.

What specific mics do you have?

Originally Posted by Mischief

My concern is that condensers will be too bright and won't sit in the mix well. That's just a hunch though and since I don't have the mikes to play with I have to rely on the insight of others and then make the best decision I can.

There are condensers that are dark and there are condensers that are bright. It's not as simple as picking a particular kind of mic.

Originally Posted by Mischief

When I said I was concerned the SDC may sit too forward in the mix, I meant be too prominent, sound like the guitar is in front or over top of the vocals, upstage the vocals be to contrasting, etc.

"The mix" involves a lot more than simply the raw tracks played at the same time. Things like EQ, reverb, panning, and a host of other variables will also play a role in how a particular track sits "in the mix."

Originally Posted by Mischief

BTW the following is my hunch and I'm trying to get any info in support or in opposition of it.

My best advice is to get a good book on recording. Asking questions online might seem like a shortcut but unless you understand process and the variables involved, you're unlikely to get where you want to go. On this, I'm speaking from experience.

Originally Posted by Mischief

Using an active modern ribbon mic I suspect is a cross between a vintage ribbon and a condenser as far as how dark it is.

It really depends on the mic. You're drawing on overly simple generalizations that are honestly unreliable and pretty useless in actual application.

Originally Posted by Mischief

I think active ribbon on the guitar would be the best fit to the active vocal mic.

This makes no sense to me. Your goal is to get your best guitar tracks using whatever mic gets you that ...and to get your best vocal tracks using whatever mic gets you that. The idea that the mic you choose for the guitar somehow points you to a certain mic for the vocals (or vice versa) is something I've never heard anyone do.

Originally Posted by Mischief

Ribbons have their own cons

The biggest con to using a ribbon mic is that they pick up A LOT of the room. So if you're recording in a room that is untreated (and hanging blankets and egg cartons on the wall is not room treatment), a ribbon can be problematic.

Originally Posted by Mischief

and I think using matched SDC pair would be easier for my exact circumstances. However I have a feeling SDC could be too much of a contrast though? Maybe something like a LDC that is a bit darker like some Oktava-Mk219 would be a better match?

For reasons I've already stated, this doesn't really make any sense.

Originally Posted by Mischief

Okay so how off the mark am I? I know there's no hard and fast rules. But I want to stack the odds in my favor. If I can definitely get a good mix with SDC then great.

Since you're asking for advice, I'd steer you clear of the SDCs if we're talking about simple mixes or just an acoustic guitar and vocals. LDC mics are more versatile and I remember when I first got into recording it was always easier to dial in a pleasant sound using an LDC rather than an SDC.

Originally Posted by Mischief

One caveat. I record in a small space that's not specifically treated. Seems okay with my vocal ribbon as I can use the null to my favor. I would not be able to do that with the vocal mic and with a blumlien ribbon set up and fear the results. Thus SDC or LDC preference otherwise I'd just get ribbons.

As I've already said, ribbons in untreated rooms are problematic. The reason being ribbons pick up a lot of sound from the back of the mic. In an untreated room, you have all kinds of sound waves bouncing around and getting picked up on the back of the mic. Not good. A properly treated room will control what comes back to the mic and result in better tracks.

I think a good LDC is going to give you better tracks in your current setup.

You don't need matched mics to do a blumlein setup. It's not my favorite way to record acoustic guitar, but I've used it.

Originally Posted by Mischief

So what type of guitar mikes would give the best odds of a good mix when using the ribbon on Vocals?

My first recommendation is still to read up on the subject. There are a some great books out there. I think this is one of the best...
http://smile.amazon.com/Recording-En...sap_bc?ie=UTF8
The same author also wrote this one that might be useful too...
http://smile.amazon.com/Mixing-Engin...sap_bc?ie=UTF8

As far as mics, assuming you want to stay on the inexpensive side, check out the ADK A6. I own a pair and they're very nice for recording acoustic guitar. In fact, years back, Dream Guitars used that mic to record Al Petteway's demo tracks. That was how I got turned onto them. They can also be used as a vocal mic, so they're versatile and can be had for around $250.

I know many will recomment MXL mics on the low end, but my experience is that the quality is inconsistent. Sometimes you get a decent mic, sometimes not so much.

[Mischief]

Originally Posted by jim1960

What specific mics do you have?

I have;
Sennheiser 935e Dynamic
a Golden Age MKIII active Ribbon
Pair Sm58 cheap knockoff wireless (these are not suitable for recoding)

Originally Posted by jim1960

There are condensers that are dark and there are condensers that are bright. It's not as simple as picking a particular kind of mic.

I do understand this. Besides bright dark I was considering the specific character of a ribbon that seems you can't get with any other mic. So my concern is it would somehow clash using ribbons and condensers. That seems to not be the case.

Originally Posted by jim1960

"The mix" involves a lot more than simply the raw tracks played at the same time. Things like EQ, reverb, panning, and a host of other variables will also play a role in how a particular track sits "in the mix."

I also understand this. By if I understand correctly it is the importance of starting with the right foundation. Besides the improvements I need to personally make with my playing and vocals. I understand that good mic placement, room sound and quality of the raw captured track is paramount.

My goal is therefore to capture recordings that take minimum amount of mixing. Then learn to mix that take minimum amount of mastering. If I understand correctly this is the goal of every good recording engineer.

Originally Posted by jim1960

My best advice is to get a good book on recording. Asking questions online might seem like a shortcut but unless you understand process and the variables involved, you're unlikely to get where you want to go. On this, I'm speaking from experience.

This I agree I should likely do. My fear is that I will read a book that tells me what I've already read. I have read countless pages of stereo recording techniques. Mic placement room treatment etc. however besides the hundred or so how to videos I have watched, the readings have been from mic manufacturers, Sound on sound, forums and a plethora of other scattered info and said scoured info was specifically for acoustic guitar and combine guitar vocal recording technique. This scattered reading and the sources though, may have lead me astray or I could easily be thinking I know certain things I really have no clue about; since I do not have the practical knowledge.
So maybe the book would fill in all the blanks and help correct my thinking.

Originally Posted by jim1960

Your goal is to get your best guitar tracks using whatever mic gets you that ...and to get your best vocal tracks using whatever mic gets you that. The idea that the mic you choose for the guitar somehow points you to a certain mic for the vocals (or vice versa) is something I've never heard anyone do.

Okay I get this. Seems the ear will not pick up a contrast of a ribbon nature on vocal mixed with a guitar that lacks that quality. (Assuming I still use ribbon on vocal which I may or may not do)

Originally Posted by jim1960

The biggest con to using a ribbon mic is that they pick up A LOT of the room. So if you're recording in a room that is untreated (and hanging blankets and egg cartons on the wall is not room treatment), a ribbon can be problematic.

At the moment this is the tiny space I record and play in and what I'm up against.......











First excuse the mess.

It's not specifically treated, however It has almost all curved walls. A low early reflection area as can be seen. An insulated ceiling with curved cedar covering, 80% of the room is soft furnishings the walls are double walled wood lined. I plan to do some specific treatments but need to ensure they stay in character with the boat or are temporary.

I also plan to run a separate circuit to my recording gear so that when I plan on getting a proper recording I can power off everything else. Then the boat is pretty darn quiet. However I'm not sure it would be enough. Btw both the recordings I made the kids were watching a video in the Salon quite loud and where I recorded I had all ports and hatch open. I used the null on the ribbon to cut out the kids movie sounds.

Alternatively I have a mate that is building a proper free standing sound room on his farm. I could likely gain some access to if I were to get to the point my performance was good enough to try and promote to the public more.

Originally Posted by jim1960

Since you're asking for advice, I'd steer you clear of the SDCs if we're talking about simple mixes or just an acoustic guitar and vocals. LDC mics are more versatile and I remember when I first got into recording it was always easier to dial in a pleasant sound using an LDC rather than an SDC.





As I've already said, ribbons in untreated rooms are problematic. The reason being ribbons pick up a lot of sound from the back of the mic. In an untreated room, you have all kinds of sound waves bouncing around and getting picked up on the back of the mic. Not good. A properly treated room will control what comes back to the mic and result in better tracks.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by jim1960

I think a good LDC is going to give you better tracks in your current setup.

Okay

Originally Posted by jim1960

You don't need matched mics to do a blumlein setup. It's not my favorite way to record acoustic guitar, but I've used it.

From what I read this is best done with ribbon mikes for a true eight pattern. Plus with a ribbon I could do Mid side. Otherwise with LDC I'm basically doing XY trying to set them up as blumlien correct? Unless they are eight patterned? Since a proper blumlien involves the same duplicate invert track then opposing panned as the eight pattern mic in a mid MS technique. Or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by jim1960

My first recommendation is still to read up on the subject. There are a some great books out there. I think this is one of the best...

http://smile.amazon.com/Recording-En...sap_bc?ie=UTF8

The same author also wrote this one that might be useful too...

http://smile.amazon.com/Mixing-Engin...sap_bc?ie=UTF8

Thank you for the recommendation

Originally Posted by jim1960

As far as mics, assuming you want to stay on the inexpensive side, check out the ADK A6. I own a pair and they're very nice for recording acoustic guitar. In fact, years back, Dream Guitars used that mic to record Al Petteway's demo tracks. That was how I got turned onto them. They can also be used a vocal mic, so they're versatile and can be had for around $250.

Thanks for the tip
These are around $300 in Australia, so $600 for a pair. That is getting to the price of used Oktava MK -012 matches pair with pads and a selection of heads. Or a matched pair of active fathead ribbons. Are the ADK A6 a better investment then either of those?
Or can you recommend a cheaper worthwhile LDC?

Originally Posted by jim1960

I know many will recomment MXL mics on the low end, but my experience is that the quality is inconsistent. Sometimes you get a decent mic, sometimes not so much.

Thank you


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[jim1960]

I'm not sure if you intended to respond to me but there's no text that I can see from you.

[Mischief]

Sorry Jim multi quoting was a nightmare on my phone using Tapatalk. I couldn't figure it out and had to do it all manually. Sheesh took an hour. But if you look now the responses are in there.

Thanks.

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[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mischief

I have;
Sennheiser 935e Dynamic
a Golden Age MKIII active Ribbon
Pair Sm58 cheap knockoff wireless (these are not suitable for recoding)

Let me preface all my remarks by saying this: There are no rules that apply 100% where mics are concerned. And just because one person sounds good on a particular mic, it doesn't mean that someone else will sound good also.

IMO, the Sennheiser isn't a good choice for recording. The Golden Age is okay but given that your room is very small and untreated, I'd reach for an LDC with a cardioid or even a hypercardioid pattern to eliminate some of the bad reflections that have to be hitting the mic in a room that small. I know you want to employ a Blumhein setup but given the limitations of your space and the fact that it's untreated, I honestly think it's the wrong way to go.

Originally Posted by Mischief

if I understand correctly it is the importance of starting with the right foundation. Besides the improvements I need to personally make with my playing and vocals. I understand that good mic placement, room sound and quality of the raw captured track is paramount.

My goal is therefore to capture recordings that take minimum amount of mixing. Then learn to mix that take minimum amount of mastering. If I understand correctly this is the goal of every good recording engineer.

Yes, it's always the goal to record tracks that require the least amount of work in post-production. And if you had a great room, a loaded up mic locker, and a rack full of quality mic pres, you should expect to have very good tracks that require less post-production. But with the limitations you have in terms of space and gear, I can't imagine that your tracks aren't going to need a good bit of work. That's not a criticism of what you have, just the reality of the limitations of what you can expect from it ...but expectations and what sounds good enough are entirely subjective and dependent on what your goals are for the music you produce. Do I think you can produce a radio-ready cd with your gear? No. But can you produce something that your family and friends would enjoy? Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Mischief

This I agree I should likely do. My fear is that I will read a book that tells me what I've already read. I have read countless pages of stereo recording techniques. Mic placement room treatment etc. however besides the hundred or so how to videos I have watched, the readings have been from mic manufacturers, Sound on sound, forums and a plethora of other scattered info and said scoured info was specifically for acoustic guitar and combine guitar vocal recording technique. This scattered reading and the sources though, may have lead me astray or I could easily be thinking I know certain things I really have no clue about; since I do not have the practical knowledge.
So maybe the book would fill in all the blanks and help correct my thinking.

I was right where you are about 10-12 years ago. I had gathered a lot of information from various online sources. I even had a friend with his own home project studio answering any questions I had. But until I read that first book I recommended to you, it really didn't all come together for me.

Originally Posted by Mischief

From what I read this is best done with ribbon mikes for a true eight pattern. Plus with a ribbon I could do Mid side. Otherwise with LDC I'm basically doing XY trying to set them up as blumlien correct? Unless they are eight patterned? Since a proper blumlien involves the same duplicate invert track then opposing panned as the eight pattern mic in a mid MS technique. Or am I missing something?

I prefer using a two mic setup where one mic is aimed at the guitar around the 12th fret and the other is aimed just below the bridge. My home studio room is small at about 10x8. It's treated but not to the degree you'd find in a pro studio. The small size and modest treatment limits what will work well.

Originally Posted by Mischief

Thanks for the tip
These are around $300 in Australia, so $600 for a pair. That is getting to the price of used Oktava MK -012 matches pair with pads and a selection of heads. Or a matched pair of active fathead ribbons. Are the ADK A6 a better investment then either of those?
Or can you recommend a cheaper worthwhile LDC?

The Oktava MK 12 is going to be less versatile than the A6 which you can also use as a vocal mic. Given your space, I think the fatheads aren't the best choice.

I don't remember if I said this in a previous post, but when I was getting started in recording I found SDC mics harder to use than LDC mics. I don't know if this is a common experience had by other people but I found the SDC mics would give me thin brittle recording unless the placement was just right. On the other hand, LDC mics were more forgiving as to placement and gave me fuller sounding tracks. I own an Earthworks SR30 and still use it occasionally if I want a bit more high end than normal but it's never my first choice.

Lastly, take everything I've said with a grain of sand. As I said earlier, what sounds good is entirely subjective. If you're recording for a limited audience of friends and family, don't sweat the details and do get whatever floats your boat. Those folks are going to listen because it's you and aren't going to criticize your production values.

Best of luck to you.

[ChuckS]

There have been some posts referring to mics I have some experience with. However, I don't do much vocal recording; most has been just for solo acoustic guitar.

I had a Cascade Fathead ribbon at the same time as an Oktava MC-012. I used them in combination for stereo guitar recording. I was never fully satisfied with the ribbon in that configuration and its figure 8 pattern was problematic in my recording spaces. I also used those mics for experimenting with the mid-side recording technique, but while interesting I didn't care for it as much as a spaced pair technique. I sold the ribbon.

I've always had pretty good luck with the Oktava SDC for guitar. But I bought a a pair of ADK A6's and then used them for stereo recording. I found they worked well, and were pretty forgiving; they seemed to perform well for various sources and in various spaces. Overall, very good value for their cost.

Since then I've acquired several 3 Zigma mics; pairs of cardioid and omni sdc capsules and a single 47 style ldc capsule. They are more accurate and detailed than the A6's, but also need to be used appropriately (less forgiving to setup/space).

My goals seem to differ from yours (where you are recording vocal and guitar at the same time). I prefer spaced pair stereo recording with the same model mic, but I'm pretty much only doing solo acoustic guitar stuff.

[Mischief]

Thanks everyone for your thorough answers. I know I can sometimes come
across as stubborn or thick headed. It's just I try not to be wishy washy and usually don't form an opinion until I have enough info to be moved.

Okay in fact last night I was able to get my Garage band on my iPhone to multitrack record using my 18i8 Focusrite. I used my 935 for Vox the DI as a center and the ribbon as a side (but I can't invert and hard pan for stereo but I could put a little panning between the ribbon and DI to give some limited image. [But I just realized I did it to reflect the way I hear the guitar from behind it instead of from a listener so I'll redo it]).

Here in the real world cover rough test By Shawnee Vox 935 guitar DI + ribbon as side mic by User 30307877 https://soundcloud.com/user-30307877...al-world-cover on #SoundCloud

Green green grass of home cover Shawnee Vox 935 guitar DI+ ribbon for side raw capture by User 30307877 https://soundcloud.com/user-30307877...-grass-of-home on #SoundCloud

I think it sounds better then my other recordings. Still I have a long way to go.

I did want to clarify I have been gigging a little and want to play out a lot more. (I know I've still got a long way to go)
But I wanted to clarify that beyond sharing with friends and family I hope to get numerous recordings that I can use to demo to get gigs. And yeah I would like to have a CD of stuff I could sell at shows when I get to that point.

Please know that for the most part these recordings are more of an experiment to hear the sound etc and not to nail a good performance as such. Once I know I'm going to have a quality capture technically I would warm up and really focus on doing my best. Not saying I can do night and day better but these samples are not my best performances. Probably not quite as good as my live performance when I'm just getting going. Yeah I know I've got a
Long way to go and I'm no young chicken. Better late then never.

So now I'm going to serious look at the best value condensers. Starting with the A6. Now what others should I consider?

Again thanks so much. Oh BTW the 935 was bought specifically for live use.

Just bought some new headphones to use as well as my Sony ones seem to build to much Bass and fatigue my ears after a while. (Usually by the time I'm ready to start tracking/ monitoring) so I hope that will help a bit. Lately I've been having trouble hearing when my pitch is out while singing. I can hear it out after. Also I think I've been monitoring too loudly.

Thanks


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[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mischief

So now I'm going to serious look at the best value condensers. Starting with the A6. Now what others should I consider?

It's been a long time since I shopped for a mic in that price range but I can recommend a couple of good places to gather lots of info and good opinions.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/

http://homerecording.com/bbs/

Both of those places were invaluable to me when I was starting out. And the first one is still my "go to" when I want opinions on any gear I'm considering purchasing.