Using condenser mikes on guitar and Ribbon on vocal okay?

Mischief · #1 03-24-2016, 06:11 PM

Howdy,
I've been searching for the answer to this but seems when someone uses ribbon in vocal they use ribbon on guitar.

I'm just looking to get some mikes for my guitar and am using a ribbon for Vox.

Would the guitar tend to sit to forward in the mix using SDC stereo mikes?

I'm recording with a small parlor that tends to have a strong mid presence using my single ribbon mic for guitar and it sounds good to me. I do not have any SDC mics so I don't know if they would be too bright on this guitar or when used in conjunction with a ribbon on vocals.

Cheers

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muscmp · #2 03-24-2016, 09:57 PM

no rules. set it up placement-wise however it best sounds to you.

i've used both on both too.

play music!

Ty Ford · #3 03-25-2016, 06:06 AM

Recording decisions are nowhere near that easy.

Traditional ribbons are usually darker than condensers.

I'm not sure what "forward in a mix" even means. Louder? Well, the ear hears "brighter is better" unless taught otherwise. It's not true that brighter is better, but a man has to know his limitations!

Regards,

Ty Ford

Mischief · #4 03-25-2016, 07:16 AM

Okay maybe I need to clarify what I mean. Maybe I'm not seeing the related answers in the first two posts. Or it's such a dumb question.

My recording mic locker is one active ribbon and one dynamic. So nows the time to buy some mikes for the guitar.

My concern is that condensers will be too bright and won't sit in the mix well. That's just a hunch though and since I don't have the mikes to play with I have to rely on the insight of others and then make the best decision I can.

When I said I was concerned the SDC may sit too forward in the mix, I meant be too prominent, sound like the guitar is in front or over top of the vocals, upstage the vocals be to contrasting, etc.

BTW the following is my hunch and I'm trying to get any info in support or in opposition of it.

Using an active modern ribbon mic I suspect is a cross between a vintage ribbon and a condenser as far as how dark it is. I think active ribbon on the guitar would be the best fit to the active vocal mic. Ribbons have their own cons and I think using matched SDC pair would be easier for my exact circumstances. However I have a feeling SDC could be too much of a contrast though? Maybe something like a LDC that is a bit darker like some Oktava-Mk219 would be a better match?

Okay so how off the mark am I? I know there's no hard and fast rules. But I want to stack the odds in my favor. If I can definitely get a good mix with SDC then great.

One caveat. I record in a small space that's not specifically treated. Seems okay with my vocal ribbon as I can use the null to my favor. I would not be able to do that with the vocal mic and with a blumlien ribbon set up and fear the results. Thus SDC or LDC preference otherwise I'd just get ribbons.

So what type of guitar mikes would give the best odds of a good mix when using the ribbon on Vocals?

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KevWind · #5 03-25-2016, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mischief

Howdy,
I've been searching for the answer to this but seems when someone uses ribbon in vocal they use ribbon on guitar.

I'm just looking to get some mikes for my guitar and am using a ribbon for Vox.

Would the guitar tend to sit to forward in the mix using SDC stereo mikes?

I'm recording with a small parlor that tends to have a strong mid presence using my single ribbon mic for guitar and it sounds good to me. I do not have any SDC mics so I don't know if they would be too bright on this guitar or when used in conjunction with a ribbon on vocals.

Oops you got your last post in while I was hunting and pecking this post, BUT it still applies

Your post is somewhat unclear

To clarify even though you state you like the sound of the single ribbon mic on you guitar , you are considering possibly getting a pair of mic's to use for guitar. yes ? Are you asking for suggestions ? If so what is your budget range?

Quote:

Would the guitar tend to sit to forward in the mix using SDC stereo mikes?

If by "forward in the mix" you are referring to the psychoacoustic effect of a sound being perceived as being more towards the front of sound stage .....then No.

In general (regardless of what type mic used), recording using a stereo pair and a stereo track or dual mono tracks , as opposed to single mic and mono track, will when panned L & R, tend to spread the sound laterally L to R across the sound stage, and not really effect the front to back perception per se. And agin only in the most general terms and all things being more or less equal, level and freq. range etc., stereo tracks actually tend to be a bit less noticeable than mono tracks. Also creating the perception of moving the sound more towards the front or back of the sound stage, is much more a function mixing and mic placement than particular mic types.

Quote:

I do not have any SDC mics so I don't know if they would be too bright on this guitar or when used in conjunction with a ribbon on vocals.

If you mean detailed in the mid high and high end ? Again only in general and of equal relative quality do SDC and LDC condenser mic's tend to be perhaps a bit more detailed in the highs than ribbons, but in terms of being able to make them sit in the mix has much more to with mixing than mic type. Not to mention the fact that given the acoustic guitar and human vocals occupy many of the same frequencies, to maintain delineation between the guitar and vocal with less EQ'ing, having different tonal qualities between the mics can just as equally be an advantage as a disadvantage

Unfortunately there is no way to know this other than trying specific mics in your specific situation with your specific guitar and voice.

There is no such thing as SDC are too bright per se . There is no such thing as SDC's or LDC's and ribbons will or will not compliment each other, in general.

There really are no answers as to what may actually work for you in your situation. The only realistic way to "stack the odds in your favor" is to first decide, if you want to try stereo recording on your guitar. Decide to deal with supplier who has a good solid return policy.. And decide on a budget range for the mics.... and then by all means solicit suggestions here of mic's to try.

I'll start with in general for SDC's you can hardly do better than a matched pair of Schopes CMC6/MK4 or 41 for around $3k

MikeBmusic · #6 03-25-2016, 08:36 AM

Condensors (even SDCs) on your guitar are going to pick up more of the room sound. Consider buying/building a few bass traps that you can use as gobos to block some of the room sound.
As to the bright/dark question you're raising - positioning of the mic is key when recording guitar, but a little EQ work during mixing will do wonders in blending different sources (vocal mic + guitar mics).

Ty Ford · #7 03-25-2016, 09:16 AM

[QUOTE=Mischief;4876620]My concern is that condensers will be too bright and won't sit in the mix well. That's just a hunch though and since I don't have the mikes to play with I have to rely on the insight of others and then make the best decision I can.

>> Don't get overly bright mics. If the results are still too bright, use EQ to pull some of the brightness out, or try brightening your vocal.

When I said I was concerned the SDC may sit too forward in the mix, I meant be too prominent, sound like the guitar is in front or over top of the vocals, upstage the vocals be to contrasting, etc.

>> Right. See previous answer.

BTW the following is my hunch and I'm trying to get any info in support or in opposition of it.

Using an active modern ribbon mic I suspect is a cross between a vintage ribbon and a condenser as far as how dark it is. I think active ribbon on the guitar would be the best fit to the active vocal mic. Ribbons have their own cons and I think using matched SDC pair would be easier for my exact circumstances. However I have a feeling SDC could be too much of a contrast though? Maybe something like a LDC that is a bit darker like some Oktava-Mk219 would be a better match?

>>The MXL MCA SP-1 is an LD not overly bright mix that's very affordable. Be careful of cheap SD mics. In addition to being too bright, they are also often edgy, which gets misinterpreted as bright. You can't EQ edge off as well.

One caveat. I record in a small space that's not specifically treated. Seems okay with my vocal ribbon as I can use the null to my favor. I would not be able to do that with the vocal mic and with a blumlien ribbon set up and fear the results. Thus SDC or LDC preference otherwise I'd just get ribbons.

>>Then prepare to fix the acoustics in your space.

So what type of guitar mikes would give the best odds of a good mix when using the ribbon on Vocals?

>> Are you sure you want to use the ribbon on vocals?
Post something so we can hear what you're doing.

Regards,

Ty Ford

otavio · #8 03-25-2016, 03:22 PM

N22 by AEA

Really good Ribbon Active mics.
Work with phantom power and dont need a looooot of gain.

Mischief · #9 03-25-2016, 03:29 PM

Thank you for being patient with a noob.
My budget is around $600 Australia which can get me a new pair of Fatheads or a used matched pair of Oktava Mk-012 or anything under the prices of those. I'm happy to say with the most cost effective mikes that will get me started. As long as they are mikes that I won't outgrow any time soon.

My guitar work is pretty average. Not average of the wonderful playing I frequently hear here. So maybe I should say below average.

I do like the ribbon mic on my vocals and thought that miking in stereo would add some interest. Since I'm playing solo I think the stereo recording is quite nice and I would really like to do this.

For further detail.
I'd describe my voice as a baritone country twangy voice.
The genre of music I play is classic country.

I'll see if I can come up with a sample that's acceptable.

Thanks again

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Mischief · #10 03-25-2016, 05:27 PM

Mmmm okay having trouble trying to give an example of my sound. Just signed up to sound cloud but can't upload from my iPhone there. Can't share with garage band as its coming up after the upload as nill and then thee is nothing in my account.
My PC computer is on its las leg and I am pretty much doing everything on my iPhone 6+ so I'm limited and not sure the work around. Tapatalk also does not allow audio upload.

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Mischief · #11 03-25-2016, 07:16 PM

Okay managed to upload some samples to soundcloud.

Caveat: these recordings are made realistically dry with no post editing. They were also made for my personal use to critique myself and get a sense of the mic sound etc. not really to document my best work. (Feel free to critique any or all parts as I'm a big boy I can take a lot of constructive criticism. )

Here's one done vocals left guitar right with a Personus M7 condenser. Guitar through the TC Play acoustic pedal and Vox with a touch of reverb. Captured into garage band via a Personus iTwo interface (I ended up taking back and now have the Focusrite 18i8)

http://soundcloud.com/user-30307877/...evil-and-me-m7

Here's another with single ribbon captured with my TC acoustic play pedal direct into Garage band. No post editing.
https://soundcloud.com/user-30307877...une-covered-by

Let me know your thoughts.
One thing I have noticed with my ribbon mic is it seems to emphasize a sort a grainy nature? I find it does not smooth out my voice like I had hoped but that I have to learn how to sing a bit more delicately. Not what I was expecting. Maybe the ribbon needs attention? I'm eager to hear everyone thoughts.

One last thing my guitar is equipped with a lyric pickup.

Why oh why must I ramble on like I do?

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sdelsolray · #12 03-25-2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mischief

Howdy,
I've been searching for the answer to this but seems when someone uses ribbon in vocal they use ribbon on guitar.

I'm just looking to get some mikes for my guitar and am using a ribbon for Vox.

Would the guitar tend to sit to forward in the mix using SDC stereo mikes?

I'm recording with a small parlor that tends to have a strong mid presence using my single ribbon mic for guitar and it sounds good to me. I do not have any SDC mics so I don't know if they would be too bright on this guitar or when used in conjunction with a ribbon on vocals.

Cheers

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Important questions:

Are you recording the guitar and vocals at the same time? Or one at a time?

Mischief · #13 03-25-2016, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Important questions:

Are you recording the guitar and vocals at the same time? Or one at a time?

Ah yes I should have mentioned this. My preference is to record in one take. Vox guitar at the same time.

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Mischief · #14 03-26-2016, 07:51 PM

Mmmmmmm this threads was buzzing along until I gave some sample, raw rough, recordings. I figured I've got a long way to go, but maybe I'm beyond help lol.

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Ty Ford · #15 03-26-2016, 09:02 PM

OK.

In Devil In Me the guitar is very muted, not much top end. I'd want it brighter. You're a little pitchy. Sounds like you need more air to support the notes. Try it with purposely inhaling more so you have the wind power to support those notes. Don't be afraid to let you voice break a little like Hank WIlliams at the right places. Sometimes the guitar pops into the left side where your vocals are. That's a little distracting.

On Rainy Day, the guitar is a little brighter. I like the balance of tones better.
The guitar work is a little too strummy for me personally. I like it better when you get simpler with those strums in the early and later sections.

Your voice is pretty natural. Yes it has some grain to it, but the type of songs you have here deserve and support that. No problems with texture. Again, more air on the notes would help. Try standing instead of sitting. It opens up the diaphragm more and give you more wind.

Regards,

Ty Ford