Can this action be lowered?

[Bmicona]

Hello, new to the forums here, found them just by googling whether or not I had any options on this guitar, so here goes!

I've been learning by doing my own setups on all my acoustics and electrics for the last year or so but this one has me stumped.
The guitar is by no means unplayable, I'm just wondering if there's anything that can be done to lower the action a bit more.

Here are fun pictures:

Here is the string height at bridge:



Here is the action at the 1st fret, about .75 or 1mm:


Action at the 7th fret, about 1.25mm:


12 fret, about 2.25mm:


14th fret (does that matter?), close to 2.75mm.


This last picture is the 7th fret showing distance between the fret and the string while fretting 1st and 14th fret, to show the relief on the neck.


Now I realize that this isn't terrible, but I believe it's on the higher end of acceptability. I feel like with only 1mm between the bridge and the strings I can't really take the saddle down any more, and even if I did, the difference it would make at the 12th fret would be not enough to notice.

Am I way off in thinking this is as low as I can go? Or is there something I'm missing? I am still fairly new to all of this, but I've found with all 6 of my guitars, one of them is always being worked on!

Thanks for any tips, if they come along!

[Bmicona]

PS: This is a Breedlove Atlas series, if that matters to anyone reading.

[mirwa]

Hello and welcome.

Setup is a personal choice.

To check your action these are the steps I take first.

Fret each string between 2/3 frets, check clearance of string above the first, a piece of paper should slide between the gap, two pieces should have a bit of a pinching feeling on the paper.

Place a straight edge onto the frets between first and 14th frets, adjust truss rod so the distance above the 7th fret is a piece of paper that just slides.

Now you can measure the height of the strings above the 12th

2mm is not horrible, it is an acoustic and the strings do need to vibrate, on electrics you can go way lower

After setting the guitar with these basics, I then assess and adjust a guitar to suit the owner and any issues the guitar may have.

A proper setup includes adjustments of the truss rod, tweaking of nut heights, adjustment of saddle radius, accommodating the action for any defects or issues the guitar may have.

Ideally any issues are repaired but these are seperate to a setup.

Steve

[tahoeguitar]

Do your set-ups in this order because all these things are inter-related and adjusting one will affect the others.

1) Set nut height first. (Unless you have a zero fret) Steve's technique of pressing the string down between frets 2 and 3 is the best method. You are using the string as a straight edge with the ends of the straightedge being at the nut and fret 2. Then you can look at the gap between the string and fret 1 to tell you if your nut slot height is high or low. Ideal theoretical nut slot height is the same as fret height, meaning there is no gap between the string and the first fret... but I like to leave mine about .003" high. As Steve noted you should just be able to slide a piece of paper in there at fret 1 between the string and the fret. This makes a pretty comfortable nut height and even the heavy handed can usually play this without buzzing. The nut height once set will not change, but the first string height will move as you adjust relief and 12th fret action.

2) Set relief... the amount of curvature in the neck. Martin factory specs call for a max of .012" but that's way too much curve. .004-.006" is more playable and widely accepted though some like it flatter. You measure it by placing a straight edge between the body join and the first fret and then sliding a feeler gauge between the straightedge and the fret in the middle of the neck. Fret #7 for 14 fret guitars and fret 6 for 12 fret guitars. Use a machinist grade straight edge because they are made accurate to within .0005" and you can't count on the straightness of other edges. You do this before messing with the saddle because adjusting the truss rod will usually also change the action height.

3) Set action height at the 12th fret by adjusting the saddle height. "Medium" action for an acoustic guitar is low E .095" and high e .065". It varies with the player. A heavy hitter will make their guitar buzz at this height and may need to go up to .110"- .080" while a light handed player may be able to go below .080" - .050"

[tahoeguitar]

I forgot to mention.. the saddle is pretty low on that Breedlove. You need a certain amount of break angle at the saddle to get decent tone, and you are at a point where you're about to run out of room. If you don't mind making a new saddle, take it as low as you dare and see what happens.

If after a proper set-up, your action is still too high and there's no saddle left, the guitar needs a neck re-set. This is the right way to fix this. I usually charge $300 for this. Often on a cheap guitar (<$400) where the cost of this surgery is not worth it... I will fix it the wrong way... shave the bridge height and cut the saddle slot deeper if needed to keep the guitar usable for a few more years. This can change the tone, so I will not do it on a more valuable guitar. If a cheap guitar is really great sounding (this does happen once in awhile) I'll recommend the expense of a neck re-set anyway.

[jonfields45]

I feel like Rip Van Winkle... 3/32" and 2/32" (94/63 mils, 2.4/1.6 mm) clearance at the 12th fret, low and high E respectively, is what I've considered standard good action for an acoustic guitar for my 51 years of playing. Seems this guitar is in good shape today. The bridge looks like it could be shaved at some point to restore the action as the guitar ages. Maybe rather than lower action you should be exploring different strings. If you are using 12s, 11s feel a lot easier and don't cost much tone or volume.

[LouieAtienza]

A factor determining the sound of the guitar is how much the string tension causes a little deformation on the top - i.e. a slight belly behind the bridge. If there is none or close to none, then lowering the saddle will reduce the amount of "torque" on the top by string pull, which could affect the guitar's sound. As others mentioned the weight is also reduced; which on a top that doesn't deform under string tension, could also adversely affect its sound. Or it may not, you'd never know for sure.

Of course with properly lowered action, the guitar can sound better simply because it's easier to fret.

Also, being a pinless bridge, it may not be a good idea to thin the entire bridge, as that may weaken it. That said, even only at 1/32" there's a lot of space for the string to vibrate without it buzzing on the bridge. I also don't necessarily believe that adding break angle would improve the guitar's sound per se as much as the string height off the top being the cause of the increased break angle. Unless, the strings are also touching the slots behind the bridge, then some relief could be shaped there so there's a clean run of the string from the back of the slot to the saddle.

[MikeL]

I do my own setups therefore strictly amateur but I think if you find 3/32" | 2/32" too difficult do also check the height of the other strings. Over the years I've often seen that stock saddles have too much radius curve which leaves the D and G strings in particular too high. These have high tension and can really make it uncomfortable. A bit pointless lowering a saddle to get the target 6th & 1st string height if the others aren't right.

Bryan Kimsey's site confirms that low E should be the highest string and the others should gradually decrease in height - and many saddles are not like this.

I really noticed this recently when I set up my 00-18V with a long drop saddle -these need reducing from the top and I could see just how high the centre was for D/G strings and even the A string was higher than the low E. Since adjusting it the guitar is 3/32" but so comfortable to play.

[Bmicona]

I will definitely look for a straight edge to use to measure relief. I have nothing that is the correct length to fit to properly do this, so i was just relying on the string as a straight edge when fretted at the neck joint and first fret.

I do play 12s on this guitar, going to 11s might not be a bad idea to make it feel a bit easier up a bit higher on the neck, i didn't think about that, thank you.

I don't think I'm even remotely qualified or comfortable to be shaving the bridge and from most of what I've read I understand that that's a pretty big no no. I'll be leaving that alone for sure.

As far as neck reset go, this guitar was expensive enough to justify it but don't think it's worth the expense now considering that the guitar is acceptable as is, I'm just looking at improving it slightly to make it a bit more comfortable.

I'm always amazed people take the time to post responses to help others out on forums like this. I appreciate all the knowledge, folks!

[terryj47]

My guess is that the 11s will be easier to play and you won't like the tone. Been there, done that. YMMV.

[tahoeguitar]

Doh!!... I didn't even notice it was a pinless bridge. I don't think shaving a bridge like this would help anyway because it would not change the geometry of the break angle, and it would most likely weaken the bridge.

I also did not notice that Lo E @ 12th fret was at 2mm (.080") which is considered already pretty low by many people. Check your nut height very closely because that is a very common source of a stiff feel.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Bmicona

I will definitely look for a straight edge to use to measure relief. I have nothing that is the correct length to fit to properly do this, so i was just relying on the string as a straight edge when fretted at the neck joint and first fret.

I do play 12s on this guitar, going to 11s might not be a bad idea to make it feel a bit easier up a bit higher on the neck, i didn't think about that, thank you.

I don't think I'm even remotely qualified or comfortable to be shaving the bridge and from most of what I've read I understand that that's a pretty big no no. I'll be leaving that alone for sure.

As far as neck reset go, this guitar was expensive enough to justify it but don't think it's worth the expense now considering that the guitar is acceptable as is, I'm just looking at improving it slightly to make it a bit more comfortable.

I'm always amazed people take the time to post responses to help others out on forums like this. I appreciate all the knowledge, folks!

It definitely looks to me as it the relief is not bad at all, which would conclude the geometry at the neck join is slightly off.

If I remember correctly many current Breedloves (if not all) have a bolt-on neck. This would make a neck-reset a bit more affordable than a traditional dovetail reset. This would then afford you to use a slightly taller saddle which may improve sound volume.

Another thing is some Breedloves use a Bridge Doctor as standard to reduce the torque of the bridge on the soundboard. It's possible it's over-adjusted causing the top to bulge slightly, raising the bridge relative to the neck.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Bmicona

I'm always amazed people take the time to post responses to help others out on forums like this. I appreciate all the knowledge, folks!

Steve