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Old 12-07-2017, 05:49 PM
Frozen Rat Frozen Rat is offline
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Default How do you react when a seller wants you to pay PayPal fees?

I bring this up because I was in the classified forum looking at a guitar that really interests me. I was seriously considering sending a PM but then saw, "buyer pays all PayPal fees" and that soured my desire to buy from that seller. I think those fees are the seller's responsibility and I don't like being asked to either to use the friends and family option (giving up protection) or paying the fees. Paying shipping I understand and agree to as long as it's not padded. But those fees are the seller's nut to pay, not mine, and I don't like it when a seller tries to slip those on to me.

I'm reminded of two weeks ago when me and my wife bought a new car. The finance guy tried to sell us an extended warranty which would have been 9% of the cost of the car. I said no. Then he wanted to sell us a maintenance package which would have been 5% of the cost of the car. I said no. He started talking about another add-on and I stopped him: "I'm going to keep saying no to whatever you try to tack on." There's a trend over the last decade of slyly increasing the costs of things with after-sale-add-ons, just like the darn plane tickets where they ding you for everything extra now, like luggage.

Lastly, I thought that it was verboten to try to push those fees on the buyer. Am I wrong?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:54 PM
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ahorsewithnonam ahorsewithnonam is offline
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Not at all. I do not have a PayPal account and have no desire to. I have bought and sold a lot of guitars here and I always send them a check and tell them to wait until it clears been doing this for a very long time and I’ve never had an issue. Of course I’ve been here a long time so that probably gives people some security about it but I have a few people walk away from deals because I wanted to write them a check their loss not mine
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:57 PM
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I'll pay the PayPal fees if the seller pays shipping, Import Duty and Sales Tax ... does that sound fair?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ahorsewithnonam View Post
Not at all. I do not have a PayPal account and have no desire to. I have bought and sold a lot of guitars here and I always send them a check and tell them to wait until it clears been doing this for a very long time and I’ve never had an issue.
That may work here, but how do you handle Ebay or Reverb purchases? I guess that question is already a bit off topic. I don't know of that many sellers anymore that want to deal with checks. It takes me two years now to go through a single book of checks since I rarely write them. I think they are going out of fashion pretty fast. But the new way of handling payments has a lot of fees. Think of ATMs, if you go to one that isn't in your bank's network you get dinged $3 or so by the other network and $2 by your bank (roughly, YMMV). I had to get $20 out once, had to, and it ended up costing me $5 in fees. I keep some cash on hand at all times now.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:59 PM
Frozen Rat Frozen Rat is offline
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Originally Posted by Brucebubs View Post
I'll pay the PayPal fees if the seller pays shipping, Import Duty and Sales Tax ... does that sound fair?
Well sure, shipping is probably more than the fees, so that's fair. I'm speaking of sellers who want you to pay both and I've noticed this is not an uncommon request in the classified forum.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:01 PM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Originally Posted by Frozen Rat View Post
I bring this up because I was in the classified forum looking at a guitar that really interests me. I was seriously considering sending a PM but then saw, "buyer pays all PayPal fees" and that soured my desire to buy from that seller. I think those fees are the seller's responsibility and I don't like being asked to either to use the friends and family option (giving up protection) or paying the fees. Paying shipping I understand and agree to as long as it's not padded. But those fees are the seller's nut to pay, not mine, and I don't like it when a seller tries to slip those on to me.

I'm reminded of two weeks ago when me and my wife bought a new car. The finance guy tried to sell us an extended warranty which would have been 9% of the cost of the car. I said no. Then he wanted to sell us a maintenance package which would have been 5% of the cost of the car. I said no. He started talking about another add-on and I stopped him: "I'm going to keep saying no to whatever you try to tack on." There's a trend over the last decade of slyly increasing the costs of things with after-sale-add-ons, just like the darn plane tickets where they ding you for everything extra now, like luggage.

Lastly, I thought that it was verboten to try to push those fees on the buyer. Am I wrong?
The seller is hardly trying to tack on something that increases the cost after you've already decided to buy, since they are saying so right up front.

Tell me, which is better, that they indicate that a specific mode of payment incurs a cost to be borne by the buyer if that is their choice, or to add that cost to the sales price unannounced, so that if someone chooses to pay with some other, less costly method, the seller gets to pocket the difference?

Everyone wants something for nothing... Tanstaafl.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:05 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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I state a price that includes insured shipping (lower 48) and the PayPal fee. It's easier to do it this way.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:09 PM
Frozen Rat Frozen Rat is offline
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

Tell me, which is better, that they indicate that a specific mode of payment incurs a cost to be borne by the buyer if that is their choice, or to add that cost to the sales price unannounced, so that if someone chooses to pay with some other, less costly method, the seller gets to pocket the difference?

Everyone wants something for nothing... Tanstaafl.
No, that's not true. No one is getting anything for nothing here, it's a matter of who is responsible for paying that fee. The seller wants to sell a guitar, there's a fee involved to use the payment network, and the seller is trying to pass that along to the buyer. There's been a lot of legal talk about this kind of thing in California over the last decade as to whether sellers can pass along those fees, mostly they are not allowed to do so. If the seller buries those fees in the total price then so be it, it's part of their hard costs and guitar sellers should do the same, bury it in the price like everyone else has to do. Either way, how would the buyer know? And if they don't and charge it as an after charge, how does the buyer know the seller isn't double-dipping?

Take this example: You go to Macys and buy a suit and it rings up $200 plus $20 tax, $220, but then Macy's says, well we get charged 3% by MasterCard to process this payment so we want you to pay that too, bringing your actual cost now to $226. That's exactly what is going on with a seller passing along PayPal fees. Gas stations used to do this, then it became outlawed, but now I see they do it again, same thing.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
I state a price that includes insured shipping (lower 48) and the PayPal fee. It's easier to do it this way.
I'd buy from a guy like you. Even if it works out the same mathematically I would be happier with you making things less complicated for me, the buyer.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:19 PM
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Horse, I do the same thing -- mail a personal or company check and they can ship after it clears. I usually offer that option to small businesses that I buy from, and many opt for the check rather than letting the credit card company skim off 3-4%. Some even offer to split the percentage with me. Obviously I am a little careful about who this applies to, and how much money is involved. For $100, I don't worry much. For $3000 more care is warranted.

I set up a Paypal account last spring anticipating the sale of several nice guitars, and because on rare occasions a client asks to pay for my professional services using a credit card. But yesterday was the first time I've actually used it, for a relatively small sale (under $200) on a used electric guitar to test the system. It worked ok, but the fees came out to ~4.5%, whereas I had expected more like 3%. Note that they take their percentage on the total sale amount, including shipping.

I would not ask the buyer to pay those fees, but I will price my item accordingly and shipping costs plus Paypal fees might affect my willingness to negotiate. I'm looking at my net proceeds, versus the convenience factor when doing remote sales. So I would price all-in including Paypal fees and ground shipping.

I resisted getting a Paypal account for a long time. For years, I've gotten a dozen phishing emails every day from "Paypal" and never even had an account. You just have to be really careful. Never reveal any information unless you personally have logged into your account though Paypal's web site yourself -- NEVER click on links appearing to be from Paypal.

Last edited by Earl49; 12-07-2017 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:21 PM
Reasley Reasley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Rat View Post
I bring this up because I was in the classified forum looking at a guitar that really interests me. I was seriously considering sending a PM but then saw, "buyer pays all PayPal fees" and that soured my desire to buy from that seller. I think those fees are the seller's responsibility and I don't like being asked to either to use the friends and family option (giving up protection) or paying the fees. Paying shipping I understand and agree to as long as it's not padded. But those fees are the seller's nut to pay, not mine, and I don't like it when a seller tries to slip those on to me.

I'm reminded of two weeks ago when me and my wife bought a new car. The finance guy tried to sell us an extended warranty which would have been 9% of the cost of the car. I said no. Then he wanted to sell us a maintenance package which would have been 5% of the cost of the car. I said no. He started talking about another add-on and I stopped him: "I'm going to keep saying no to whatever you try to tack on." There's a trend over the last decade of slyly increasing the costs of things with after-sale-add-ons, just like the darn plane tickets where they ding you for everything extra now, like luggage.

Lastly, I thought that it was verboten to try to push those fees on the buyer. Am I wrong?
Good evening --

Not trying to tell you what to do & I'm only trying to help. Having said that, a seller can say anything they want and, in a free market, you have the right/ability to walk away. The bottom line on the "correct price" is the intersection of what the buyer is willng to pay and the price the buyer is willng to take -- inclusive of ALL costs.

I would suggest that you determine the price that you are willing to pay, add some negotiating room, and begin your correspondence by first asking any needed questions about specifics of the instrument, additional pictures if needed, etc., with NO mention of price or fees.

Then, after reflecting, if you are seriously interested in the instrument, send the seller another e-mail and give them your opening offer by saying something like:

"I am interested in your guitar and, to simplify the discussion about the potential purchase, my offer of $xxx is for the total price, including shipping and any other fees associated with the purchase."

If they reply by saying something like: "But I want you to pay the PayPal fees, etc., etc." Then reply with clarity that you will pay any fee that they want you to pay as long as it is reflected on the final agreed-to amount.

If they are unyielding, then there's your evidence that they are not serious about the negotiation. If they want to sell the instrument -- and your offer reflects the approximate value of the instrument, then they will work wth you -- they would be foolish to "walk."

As an aside, I've seen several custom instruments on this site that are not realistically priced. Note that I'm only basing this on their "offer price to self-described purchase price of the instrument."
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:30 PM
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Not sure if the OP is talking about the buyer paying that specific amount of money that represents the PayPal fee or the use of Friends & Family. I don't see a problem with the former when it's stated up front or as part of a negotiation. However, the latter has been well discussed on AGF and is a scam because the buyer loses all rights under a Friends & Family transaction...
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:31 PM
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I don’t know...I look at total cost, so if the total cost is still a win for me, then why should I care how my dollars are dispursed? I too have bought & sold many guitars and when I sell my price always includes PayPal & shipping...it’s just cleaner that way for me. But I’m fine taking a check as well, with the understanding that I won’t ship until the check clears.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Rat View Post
I bring this up because I was in the classified forum looking at a guitar that really interests me. I was seriously considering sending a PM but then saw, "buyer pays all PayPal fees" and that soured my desire to buy from that seller. I think those fees are the seller's responsibility and I don't like being asked to either to use the friends and family option (giving up protection) or paying the fees. Paying shipping I understand and agree to as long as it's not padded. But those fees are the seller's nut to pay, not mine, and I don't like it when a seller tries to slip those on to me.
I certainly take that position when I sell.

When I buy, if someone wants the paypal fees covered or shipping or their dogs flea treatment, I just consider it in total and whether that total price is in line with what I think the value of whatever is being sold. If it isn't and it's not negotiable, then I move on.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Rat View Post
Well sure, shipping is probably more than the fees, so that's fair. I'm speaking of sellers who want you to pay both and I've noticed this is not an uncommon request in the classified forum.
My statement was 'tongue-in-cheek'.
Shipping to Australia, Import Duty and Sales Tax will be way more than any PayPal fees.
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