So sad, open mics in my small town shut down by ASCAP licensing

[bil]

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

The problem is most of the people who's songs get covered unless the venue or player turns in a set list never get paid. I can play Guy Clark, Blaze Foley, Townes Van Zandt, Iris DeMent, Kimmie Rhodes and all my other favorite alt country / folkies do you think their / their estates are ever gonna see a penny from my performance? No It will all go to justin biber, lady gaga, taylor swift, luke bryant, the big names. The world has become too big to collect money for playing live song covers. My 5 dollars would never actually make it the people I cover. You would have to have each musician enter the names of the all songs they played which some musicians might not even know or will remember what they played last night to turn in the sheet. Also how would turn a set list internet? snail mail? The easiest thing is just to get rid of live performance royalties.

I addressed this earlier in another response. The problem you describe isn't the fault of the venue or the open mic'er. It's a failure of the ageeement between ASCAP, et al and the creators. That's a separate issue. I'm not a systems designer but I can see that development of some sort of metric to measure who should get what shouldn't be all that difficult, given the computing power at our fingertips these days. The suggestion I elaborated on addresses creating the pot, not its distribution.

[MikeBmusic]

I post all my BMI-registered songs on my BMI 'live' list, and get royalty checks a couple of times a year.
One venue where I have played open mics a number of times evidently has refused to play ball with the BMI lawyers, because last time I went to list songs there, a pop-up told me that I can't register those performances as the venue 'has not responded to repeated letters' regarding licensing.

[dwstout]

I think the PROs should offer a license to performers and not just venues.

[Toby Walker]

Until the existing laws are changed, the best and most obvious solution is that the person running the open mic move it to a non-profit venue. One suggestion would be to the local library. This has been done many times in the past with much success. Even in the OP's opening statement, his open mic moved to a similar place so in essence, it wasn't shut down like he claimed it was.

Anytime you have music being performed in a venue that is operating for profit, the Performing Rights Organizations have every lawful right to collect their fees. On the same note, the artists are entitled to every cent for their intellectual property. The way it is distributed, or how much to whom, is beside the point here.

That's the reality. Problem solved.

[MartyGraw]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

Until the existing laws are changed, the best and most obvious solution is that the person running the open mic move it to a non-profit venue. One suggestion would be to the local library. This has been done many times in the past with much success. Even in the OP's opening statement, his open mic moved to a similar place. Problem solved.

Anytime you have music being performed in a venue that is operating for profit, the Performing Rights Organizations have every lawful right to collect their fees. On the same note, the artists are entitled to every cent for their intellectual property. The way it is distributed, or how much to whom, is beside the point here.

That's the reality.

I sympathize with you and understand where you are coming from, but the "reality is" it isn't going to happen.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by MartyGraw

I sympathize with you and understand where you are coming from, but the "reality is" it isn't going to happen.

I don't quite understand what you meant by it isn't going to happen. What I was pointing out is that the reality is the current law, which at present is happening.

[smalltownjoe]

As I'm not in The U.S so I'm not sure if I can join in but we do have a similar organisation to ASCAP here in Spain, "SGAE" and I've heard similar stories about open mic nights closing because of it..

So what about buskers? I guess it's imossible to police the sreet players right? I am "busking" online, am I likely to recieve a letter from a big artists saying "hey stop playing my songs"

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by smalltownjoe

As I'm not in The U.S so I'm not sure if I can join in but we do have a similar organisation to ASCAP here in Spain, "SGAE" and I've heard similar stories about open mic nights closing because of it..

So what about buskers? I guess it's imossible to police the sreet players right? I am "busking" online, am I likely to recieve a letter from a big artists saying "hey stop playing my songs"

I'm not sure how the laws operate in your country, but I would guess that as a 'busker' you're not operating a business similar to the ones discussed here. The issue is also different in that it's not the artists that are complaining, but rather the businesses that are asked to obtain licenses. I do know that in certain cities, 'busker's' are required to obtain permits for performing.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

Until the existing laws are changed, the best and most obvious solution is that the person running the open mic move it to a non-profit venue. One suggestion would be to the local library. This has been done many times in the past with much success. Even in the OP's opening statement, his open mic moved to a similar place so in essence, it wasn't shut down like he claimed it was.

Anytime you have music being performed in a venue that is operating for profit, the Performing Rights Organizations have every lawful right to collect their fees. On the same note, the artists are entitled to every cent for their intellectual property. The way it is distributed, or how much to whom, is beside the point here.

That's the reality. Problem solved.

Spot on, Toby. And let's not forget that profit can be in the form of promotion. Bottom line, if you are using someone's intellectual property to make a profit, or to promote yourself or your venue, you have to pay the owner of that property for its use. It is what it is, folks.

[bil]

Originally Posted by Irish Pennant

This idea is one of the worst ideas I've heard on this board. If I had to join some freaking club to play my first open mic, I would never have played the open mic. I would never have gotten more excited about playing, about stepping my game up. I would have never gone out to open mics and supported other musicians. I would never have been exposed to new genres of music and made music purchases from artist in those genres. I would never have been interested enough in the acoustic guitar community to have found this web forum. I would have stayed in a bowling league and played my guitar to myself on my living room couch. I'd only own one guitar, no PA and all my friends would be smelly fishermen. Having to pay to a membership club to play an open mic is a very bad idea.

If you want to have a private club, like Costco and take your membership dues and rent places to have your private open mics (what an oxymoron of a term) then by all means, go for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I'd gladly join a club if it meant that membership would ensure that the writers get recompensed for their work appropriately. And I would certainly have gone to clubs and supported other musicians, that what I'm doing now. I'm not sure why you seem so angry at a basic idea for a solution to a problem I didn't even know existed until a few days ago. Does anything need to be fixed at all? Maybe this whole thread is way off base and no issue exists, but considering it has gone on for 16 pages now, I think that might be wrong. So if an issue exists, isn't a good idea to present many possible solutions, and maybe whittle them down to one workable solution? Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis. Peace

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I'm not sure how the laws operate in your country, but I would guess that as a 'busker' you're not operating a business similar to the ones discussed here. The issue is also different in that it's not the artists that are complaining, but rather the businesses that are asked to obtain licenses. I do know that in certain cities, 'busker's' are required to obtain permits for performing.

In my neighboring city, Greensboro, NC - buskers are required to obtain a license. The license is free but the background check involved is real. Mostly an effort to keep perverts and known criminals off the streets, I think. Beggars are also required to have a license - apparently the city sees these two activities as one and the same.

Buskers pay no fees to the PRO groups. Not really sure how this fits in the scheme of things but buskers seem to be absolved of responsibility regarding copyright laws - at least around here. I guess they think that if you have to play a guitar on the street that you have bigger problems than BMI & ASCAP.

[Denny B]

Originally Posted by PistolPete

ASCAP & BMI would have been well out of their jurisdiction if they had chased venues in the UK & Germany.

In the UK the 1956 copyright act would have stood, meaning The Cavern Club would have by law needed a licence from the composer of a piece of music to host a public performance of it. PRS administers such licences today &, as far as I can tell from the sources available to me from behind my keyboard, did so back in 1962. How vigorously they pursued a small jazz club, I'm not sure, but the law in the UK has remained unchanged since the Beatles were on stage at the Cavern. .

In Germany performance rights are administered by GEMA, but my German is not nearly good enough to work out what the situation was in the early 60s.

Thank you for the info from your side of the pond, Pete...

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by bil

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I'd gladly join a club if it meant that membership would ensure that the writers get recompensed for their work appropriately. And I would certainly have gone to clubs and supported other musicians, that what I'm doing now. I'm not sure why you seem so angry at a basic idea for a solution to a problem I didn't even know existed until a few days ago. Does anything need to be fixed at all? Maybe this whole thread is way off base and no issue exists, but considering it has gone on for 16 pages now, I think that might be wrong. So if an issue exists, isn't a good idea to present many possible solutions, and maybe whittle them down to one workable solution? Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis. Peace

Actually I have no skin in the fight other than I enjoy playing open mics and I want as many of them around as possible, every night of the week. They were my springboard into a greater world of music. I'd hate to see it diminished by adding more restrictions.
As I said, I have no skin in the fight, I play all original music, I'm not held back from playing at venues that don't pay to ASCAP or BMI. I'm new to playing at paying gigs but I've managed to get a few at our local wineries, at wine tasting events and at a couple of breweries. Live music is not a regular occurrences at these venues, what I play fits in with their needs.

As someone that plays all original music, why should I have to join a club that pays royalties to PROs?

[MartyGraw]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I don't quite understand what you meant by it isn't going to happen. What I was pointing out is that the reality is the current law, which at present is happening.

What I meant was open mics are going to continue to function whether they are paying fees or not. ASCAP/BMI cannot police everywhere, but again I understand and respect your plight...

[mercy]

The way I see it is like a guy invents a computer and sells it to a guy that can market it to me and others who buy it. Then I can use it as many times as I want without paying a fee to the inventor.
I know the laws arent like that for music but I dont see why not. There are a lot of laws that are illogical like a busker and a beggar being the same thing. They are two different things in my opinion. The busker performs a service for pay and the beggar skips the service.