Wabi-Sabi Guitar

[redir]

What a fantastic ending to this story. I love figure eights and full circles and that just seems to jibe.

[tadol]

Well - I've had the guitar at home for a day now, and I am really happy with it. As I told Howard, I don't need another guitar - I have probably a dozen really outstanding ones, and another dozen that I enjoy having and playing for numerous reasons, so it certainly wasn't need. But this guitar, and Howards approach to it, both appealed very uniquely to me, and when I finally got a chance to play it, it was equally clear that it is a wonderful and open instrument - as I would expect of Howards work - and as this approach to building may not be terribly successful on the commercial level, it seemed to be an opportunity that probably wouldn't come again soon - so . . . . .

What can't be experienced in pictures is the wonderful feel and vibe this guitar has - it feels good, and the satin lacquer and the "character" that is in the materials come together in a creation that is good now, but still too new and "perfect" in its own "imperfect" way - I can sense that the more it gets played, and the newness of it wears off - a polish on the back of the neck and on the front from the action of playing it, things like that that make most guitars start to look kinda worn and used - I think will only continue to improve it, aesthetically. Like the ads that say, "in near perfect condition, a 9.9 out of 10", I think I'd say this one new is a solid 9.0 out of 10, but the more it gets used, the closer it will get to being a solid 11.0 out of 10 - and I can only imagine how incredible it'll be in 10 or 20 years. Sound and action are great now, and I look forward to what happens there, but I don't need to wait for it to "break in" to sound great.

We have some amazing luthiers in N. Cal - and I've been very privileged and appreciative to be the beneficiary of their talents. Thank you, Howard -

[murrmac123]

This has been one of the best threads ever in the Custom forum, IMO.

[riverrummed]

This was a great thread all the way around. I had my library get me The Unknown Craftsman by Soetsu Yanagi as mentioned in this thread. I read it in two days. What an excellent read and very insightful. It was perhaps the only time I can recall reading a Japanese layman's take on certain aspects of Zen, not to mention considered thought on beauty. Time for another wabi-sabi build (12 fretter? 13 fretter? Short scale? ) since that one sold so quickly. Like doing an Enso each day.

[fazool]

Hey Howard, I just stumbled across this video and quite liked it

[theEdwinson]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

Serendipity! An unintended (the best kind) wabi-sabi event!

For 15 years I used stainless steel slats in my side bender. Recently I switched to blue spring steel. The blue steel can easily react with the tannins in wet wood to create a black iron oxide stain. In order to prevent this, sides need to be wrapped in aluminum foil or baking parchment. I had only bent a couple of sets with the new slats and unthinkingly fell back to my old habit of not wrapping when I put the pernambuco sides through the bender. They came out with areas of deep black stain. It's mostly on the inside of the sides, which stay wetter and get hotter in my process, but also in some outside areas.

My first reaction was that I would need to sand the stained surface off. But then I realized that I must have unconsciously channeled my growing inner sense of wabi-sabi when bending. That, or I had a dumb-luck accident.

I do need to sand to get a smooth, fresh surface for gluing and finishing. But I will leave most of the stain as it is.

I have had the same reaction (both thermo-chemical and emotional!) when bending lighter colored sides (flamed, yellow African Movingui) with a new set of spring steel slats. At first I was horrified, knowing there would be very little left to the sides if I tried to sand out the black stains. But then I remembered something I heard once when talking with my shop partner, Aaron Andrews, a few years back. He mentioned that you can use oxalic acid solution to bleach stained woods.

You can buy boxes of powdered oxalic acid from vendors who sell specialized wood finishing products. It's marketed as wood bleach. Mix it up in warm water, sponge it onto the stained wood, wait awhile, and repeat.
To my amazement, not only did the dark black stains disappear to nothing, the natural color of the wood wasn't affected! AND the sides didn't warp or cup, because I kept them clamped in the body mold while waiting for the chemical reaction to occur. Two or three oxalic acid applications, and those flamed Movingui sides were perfectly clean!

After it was all done, I added some baking soda to water, 50/50, and wiped on to neutralize the acid. Then the build proceeded as normal, and I went hunting after more Wabi-sabi. It's always there!

BTW, after that incident, I wrapped the spring steel slats in heavy-duty aluminum foil so they would not directly contact the wood. And I always wrap the moistened sides in heavy kraft paper before bending.

[ombudsman]

I think if you look at differences between cultures they can seem overwhelming. But if you look at the commonalities you might come to the conclusion that we're all the same.

As the guy that sometimes wears a t shirt that says "American Japanese Philosophy" I will take it upon myself to make this point:

You don't have to go very far in American music or culture to get something close to wabi sabi. Among the truisms I've heard many times over the years are statements like "the guitars that have been played a lot sound the best" or "simple songs affect me more than pretentious/fancy/complicated music school stuff".

These show the outline of the underlying anti elitism and lower/middle class viewpoint that both go back all the way to the founding of the country and in fact before that to the reasons we had a revolution here. Our popular music is clearly rooted in the foundation of blues and folk, and the African and European folk styles before them to a much greater degree than the classical or modern compositional traditions (though they also are represented).

I argue that perfectionist aesthetics on the part of most people are a product of post WWII affluent consumer culture that has crept into the musical instrument business, a lot more than it has the music itself. I see very few people rallying behind perfectionist or elitist ideas of playing music or composition, either on or off stage. How ridiculous would that be, to claim that you're going to write the perfect song that will reach people because it is made in the best possible way ? We all instinctively know that wouldn't work and would be hilarious.

The perfectionist aesthetic is not dominant in our culture, outside of our materialist/ consumer /conspicuous consumption side. And I don't think it is necessarily authentic or a permanent condition in that realm.

[Truckjohn]

This was a great build and I love the way it came out.

It's funny - the idea of seeing beauty in things.... Reminds me of the guitar top runout thread going on now.... And that thread has some people really riled up...

I have built a couple guitars with tops that have a bunch of runout. They get tons of compliments on the wood and it's glittery, shimmery look that changes as you move it around... Many people love it because it doesn't look like featureless white wallpaper.... Except for guitar aficionados who *know* that runout is to be despised. And they hate it... Pfffttttt. Visible runout... Defective pile of trash...

People who love the plain white delicate porcelain bowls and cups generally hate the sort of pottery said to demonstrate the pinnacle of wabi sabi. And vice versa...

I mean seriously - the evidence of a great thing is the thing...

The wabi sabi bowl had rocks mixed into the clay that became visible... Some people only see cheapening and adulteration to cut cost... Others can see the beauty in it that in no way diminishes the function...

Just like the cracks in the headstock veneer and tail wedge and the burn marks on the sides..... There's something going on with this guitar that's beyond what you get with featureless wallpaper cookie cutter sort of builds...

[gitarro]

This is an interesting subject.

Guitar making is after all a form of woodworking. Has there been a corresponding expectation in custom woodworking and artisanal furniture building for higher and higher standards and closer tolerances and greater levels of creativity in inlaying techniques etc.? From a cursory look at what is available from many full time and part time woodworkers building all manner of wooden items and furniture on custom order, it seems to be the case. There is a lot of truly beautiful and high quality woodworking being done to very exacting standards.

There is also another stream of influence in American culture and art that prizes excellence in building - e.g. the Shaker influence which turned daily labor into a spiritual exercise and an "action prayer". The Shakers produced many articles of furniture that are highly regarded today for their functionalism and cleanness and excellence of build quality. Over time this may have been transmuted in secular culture into a kind of seeking after transcendence in the work of one's hands.

Indeed, far from being harbingers of mass manufacturing, consumerism and materialism or an expression of eliticism, the custom builders of furniture, wooden items or musical instruments may be more aptly placed in a different counter-movement at odds with the former movement - being focused on individualism, a romantic going back to nature or one's roots, and even on seeking after the ineffable and the eternal. The love of the "perfect" fit and finish and build quality may be an expression of this movement just as much as wabi sabi is also a different but not incompatible expression of the same movement? After all it is said that Shaker women who made their quilts intentionally left one mistake in their knitting to remind themselves that they are fallible and that only God is truly perfect.

Originally Posted by ombudsman

I think if you look at differences between cultures they can seem overwhelming. But if you look at the commonalities you might come to the conclusion that we're all the same.

As the guy that sometimes wears a t shirt that says "American Japanese Philosophy" I will take it upon myself to make this point:

You don't have to go very far in American music or culture to get something close to wabi sabi. Among the truisms I've heard many times over the years are statements like "the guitars that have been played a lot sound the best" or "simple songs affect me more than pretentious/fancy/complicated music school stuff".

These show the outline of the underlying anti elitism and lower/middle class viewpoint that both go back all the way to the founding of the country and in fact before that to the reasons we had a revolution here. Our popular music is clearly rooted in the foundation of blues and folk, and the African and European folk styles before them to a much greater degree than the classical or modern compositional traditions (though they also are represented).

I argue that perfectionist aesthetics on the part of most people are a product of post WWII affluent consumer culture that has crept into the musical instrument business, a lot more than it has the music itself. I see very few people rallying behind perfectionist or elitist ideas of playing music or composition, either on or off stage. How ridiculous would that be, to claim that you're going to write the perfect song that will reach people because it is made in the best possible way ? We all instinctively know that wouldn't work and would be hilarious.

The perfectionist aesthetic is not dominant in our culture, outside of our materialist/ consumer /conspicuous consumption side. And I don't think it is necessarily authentic or a permanent condition in that realm.

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Indeed, far from being harbingers of mass manufacturing, consumerism and materialism or an expression of eliticism, the custom builders of furniture, wooden items or musical instruments may be more aptly placed in a different counter-movement at odds with the former movement - being focused on individualism, a romantic going back to nature or one's roots, and even on seeking after the ineffable and the eternal. The love of the "perfect" fit and finish and build quality may be an expression of this movement just as much as wabi sabi is also a different but not incompatible expression of the same movement? After all it is said that Shaker women who made their quilts intentionally left one mistake in their knitting to remind themselves that they are fallible and that only God is truly perfect.

While I appreciate some of the other arts you refer to I don't think they are compatible. This is where the context and source of wabi sabi aesthetics are helpful, because it is a misunderstanding to think of it only as a set of aesthetics. It's an expression of an underlying value system and philosophy in the form of aesthetics.

As a disclaimer, from my perspective, Zen Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion because it involves no deities, supernatural beliefs, or origin story of the world or human beings. Some other kinds of Buddhism do incorporate those things, and I think that is why Zen is sometimes referred to as a "non theist religion". I think that is a contradiction in terms. YMMV.

Some of the main features of Zen are recognizing that desire causes suffering, that much of what motivates people is a form of desire called "grasping" which means trying to achieve some sort of permanence, security, or perfection which does not exist in reality and this assures a permanent state of suffering, and that our various mental constructs such as our concepts of ourselves as "persistent" things (ego) are illusions that cause more suffering and distorted perception. So Zen like other forms of Buddhism is an answer to these things by being a toolbox designed to break down those illusions and those patterns of thinking and behavior.

Wabi sabi aesthetics are fundamentally about a true acceptance of impermanence, without materialism or hierarchical thinking. It is not wabi sabi to desire having the best, most wabi sabi objects in your home, or to pay a fortune for them, or to think that they are going to fix you (although many people nonetheless make those mistakes).

It is counterproductive to make a show of how wabi sabi your things are in a comparitive way or make a lot of value judgments about them. The only value in these things is that 1) they are simple things that we need anyway rather than decorative or unused show pieces and 2) they reflect or help us see that everything is temporary including us.

For those reasons, a focus on individualism, romantic ideas of old style craft, or seeking the eternal are quite opposed to wabi sabi. Those things are either forms of grasping, or what we call spiritual materialism. From a Zen point of view they can only do harm, and maybe a lot more than you might guess.

I realize some of this may seem subtle or contradictory from our point of view considering how the classic Zen arts are at this point, dated, traditional things like pottery, calligraphy, and archery. These seem to us to have a strong nostalgic component or to be about cultivating one's sense of self to appear a certain way to other people. And it's true that many people approach them that way, as if you could make some real difference by taking a few classes or putting some trinkets and incense smoke in your house.

Part of the reason for this misunderstanding is the ingrained values of western culture, and another part is the fact that we are trying to take something that has been around for a while into the present, and we don't want to get it wrong so we go with the older, traditional sources and conventions.

That seems reasonable but it causes confusion of the older expressions of a way of thinking, for the thinking itself. Zen is not about aesthetics, we get involved in them because the process of deeply learning a simple real world discipline can require certain kinds of letting go of desire and self conscious thinking that cause our problems. Those changes in you are the reason for the disciplines, not the resulting objects that are left behind from the processes, appealing as they may be.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by gitarro

After all it is said that Shaker women who made their quilts intentionally left one mistake in their knitting to remind themselves that they are fallible and that only God is truly perfect.

My brain is aching quite painfully after reading the above two posts ... no disparagement ... I just don't function at that level ... but I can make a comment about the "deliberate mistake" .

I have long suspected that this "deliberate mistake" thing is a total myth which has gathered traction through the years ... like the hoary old myth about Hendrix/Clapton/Page being asked " How does it feel to be the greatest guitarist in the world" and they reply "I don't know ... you would have to ask Peter Green/Rory Gallagher/Phil Keaggy " .... and many more names on both sides. Total myth.

Similarly, the "deliberate mistake" has, to my knowledge, been attributed to the Shakers , the Amish, the Persian rugmakers and the Navajo ... and probably to many others of whom I am unaware. I don't buy it for one second .. it's exactly the sort of story that would get started by vendors to explain and excuse any perceived faults in the artefact .

Apologies to Howard for complicity in the ongoing derailment of the thread ... I assume that since the build is completed, it isn't too much of a vexation.

[Howard Klepper]

This is not derailment, Murray. The subject is broad.

[theEdwinson]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

This is not derailment, Murray. The subject is broad.

That is so true, Howard. You've got your finger on the pulse of a subject that could be made into a lengthy philosophical treatise. I hope this discussion goes on for a long time, because the essence of our favorite musical instrument goes much deeper than surface appearance; and I think it is important for us builders and players alike to do proper honor to the materials we build and play with.

Reading books by modern legends of Fine Woodworking like Sam Maloof and George Nakashima, you get a sense of reverence for wood in all its forms and permutations. They celebrate the entire concept of Wabi-sabi, and have produced objects of incomparable beauty that will live for generations as icons of craft and art.
I think this is an important discussion, and I'm grateful to you for bringing it up. I'm a little late joining the discussion, but I love the diversity of opinion here. Obviously, a huge number of other people agree...

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

While I appreciate some of the other arts you refer to I don't think they are compatible. This is where the context and source of wabi sabi aesthetics are helpful, because it is a misunderstanding to think of it only as a set of aesthetics. It's an expression of an underlying value system and philosophy in the form of aesthetics.

As a disclaimer, from my perspective, Zen Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion because it involves no deities, supernatural beliefs, or origin story of the world or human beings. Some other kinds of Buddhism do incorporate those things, and I think that is why Zen is sometimes referred to as a "non theist religion". I think that is a contradiction in terms. YMMV.

Some of the main features of Zen are recognizing that desire causes suffering, that much of what motivates people is a form of desire called "grasping" which means trying to achieve some sort of permanence, security, or perfection which does not exist in reality and this assures a permanent state of suffering, and that our various mental constructs such as our concepts of ourselves as "persistent" things (ego) are illusions that cause more suffering and distorted perception. So Zen like other forms of Buddhism is an answer to these things by being a toolbox designed to break down those illusions and those patterns of thinking and behavior.

Wabi sabi aesthetics are fundamentally about a true acceptance of impermanence, without materialism or hierarchical thinking. It is not wabi sabi to desire having the best, most wabi sabi objects in your home, or to pay a fortune for them, or to think that they are going to fix you (although many people nonetheless make those mistakes).

It is counterproductive to make a show of how wabi sabi your things are in a comparitive way or make a lot of value judgments about them. The only value in these things is that 1) they are simple things that we need anyway rather than decorative or unused show pieces and 2) they reflect or help us see that everything is temporary including us.

For those reasons, a focus on individualism, romantic ideas of old style craft, or seeking the eternal are quite opposed to wabi sabi. Those things are either forms of grasping, or what we call spiritual materialism. From a Zen point of view they can only do harm, and maybe a lot more than you might guess.

I realize some of this may seem subtle or contradictory from our point of view considering how the classic Zen arts are at this point, dated, traditional things like pottery, calligraphy, and archery. These seem to us to have a strong nostalgic component or to be about cultivating one's sense of self to appear a certain way to other people. And it's true that many people approach them that way, as if you could make some real difference by taking a few classes or putting some trinkets and incense smoke in your house.

Part of the reason for this misunderstanding is the ingrained values of western culture, and another part is the fact that we are trying to take something that has been around for a while into the present, and we don't want to get it wrong so we go with the older, traditional sources and conventions.

That seems reasonable but it causes confusion of the older expressions of a way of thinking, for the thinking itself. Zen is not about aesthetics, we get involved in them because the process of deeply learning a simple real world discipline can require certain kinds of letting go of desire and self conscious thinking that cause our problems. Those changes in you are the reason for the disciplines, not the resulting objects that are left behind from the processes, appealing as they may be.

I do not usually quote longer posts as it uses up valuable real estate here, but this thinking makes a lot of sense to me. I see WabiSabi as something that happens in spite of the crafts-persons BEST intentions and efforts, and it CANNOT be contrived, that is something else.

I have played the guitar that is the subject of this thread, and I did recommend that Tad purchase it on merit.

[gitarro]

Thanks for your explanation of zen. I agree that zen comes from an entirely different social philosophical and cultural milieu as the shaker worldview of life which is a Christian theistic perspective, or from romanticism which is an expression of naturalism, or from individualism which is a humanist perspective.

What I was trying ro get at in my earlier post is to suggest that the love of almost perfect fit and finish in guitars is not caused by the materialistic consumerism of western society as you posited, but could be rather a reaction against it and may be influenced by other philosophical and theological movements.

For example the longest standing example of funcutonal perfectionism is the search after excellence and perfection in making even household articles that was pioneered by such groups as the Shakers. The Shakers didn't build their furniture and articles to one day fetch high prices in auctions etc but as daily meditations on giving glory to God. The Shakers exemplified selflessness in practicing an ascetic lifestyle with celibacy and communal living. The last thing on their mind in making those objects was to exhibit their individuality or boast to others. Unlike Zen Buddhism, the problem is not seen as desire itself but what is desired and for whose benefit and enjoyment. Desire is good when it is exercised as it was meant to be.

For the other philosophical movements like romanticism and humanism, their motivations and influences would be different but it would also be a misnomer imho to classify them as western consumerist materialism based on the usual meaning behind those words as exemplified by the endless buying and discarding and desire generation of endless products that keep the business and advertising world employed.

After all it would hardly apt for all the luthiers who build according to near perfect fit and finish to be seen or portrayed as pandering to consumerism!

Of course if you making a value judgement on all those theological or philosophical movements from the zen perspective as being "spiritual materialism" - which one is not supposed to do in zen? - then that is a different discussion altogether, and one well out of the rules of discussion of this forum.

Originally Posted by ombudsman

While I appreciate some of the other arts you refer to I don't think they are compatible. This is where the context and source of wabi sabi aesthetics are helpful, because it is a misunderstanding to think of it only as a set of aesthetics. It's an expression of an underlying value system and philosophy in the form of aesthetics.

As a disclaimer, from my perspective, Zen Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion because it involves no deities, supernatural beliefs, or origin story of the world or human beings. Some other kinds of Buddhism do incorporate those things, and I think that is why Zen is sometimes referred to as a "non theist religion". I think that is a contradiction in terms. YMMV.

Some of the main features of Zen are recognizing that desire causes suffering, that much of what motivates people is a form of desire called "grasping" which means trying to achieve some sort of permanence, security, or perfection which does not exist in reality and this assures a permanent state of suffering, and that our various mental constructs such as our concepts of ourselves as "persistent" things (ego) are illusions that cause more suffering and distorted perception. So Zen like other forms of Buddhism is an answer to these things by being a toolbox designed to break down those illusions and those patterns of thinking and behavior.

Wabi sabi aesthetics are fundamentally about a true acceptance of impermanence, without materialism or hierarchical thinking. It is not wabi sabi to desire having the best, most wabi sabi objects in your home, or to pay a fortune for them, or to think that they are going to fix you (although many people nonetheless make those mistakes).

It is counterproductive to make a show of how wabi sabi your things are in a comparitive way or make a lot of value judgments about them. The only value in these things is that 1) they are simple things that we need anyway rather than decorative or unused show pieces and 2) they reflect or help us see that everything is temporary including us.

For those reasons, a focus on individualism, romantic ideas of old style craft, or seeking the eternal are quite opposed to wabi sabi. Those things are either forms of grasping, or what we call spiritual materialism. From a Zen point of view they can only do harm, and maybe a lot more than you might guess.

I realize some of this may seem subtle or contradictory from our point of view considering how the classic Zen arts are at this point, dated, traditional things like pottery, calligraphy, and archery. These seem to us to have a strong nostalgic component or to be about cultivating one's sense of self to appear a certain way to other people. And it's true that many people approach them that way, as if you could make some real difference by taking a few classes or putting some trinkets and incense smoke in your house.

Part of the reason for this misunderstanding is the ingrained values of western culture, and another part is the fact that we are trying to take something that has been around for a while into the present, and we don't want to get it wrong so we go with the older, traditional sources and conventions.

That seems reasonable but it causes confusion of the older expressions of a way of thinking, for the thinking itself. Zen is not about aesthetics, we get involved in them because the process of deeply learning a simple real world discipline can require certain kinds of letting go of desire and self conscious thinking that cause our problems. Those changes in you are the reason for the disciplines, not the resulting objects that are left behind from the processes, appealing as they may be.