Percussive thumb-slap is so loud on recordings

[Celine John]

Hi everyone.

I have just bought my first real mic and interface.

I spended more money than i expected, when i was shopping for my recording gear. I bough a focusright 2i2 interface and the Aston Origins mic. But i'm actually pretty dissapointed. I have been trying to record my fingerstyle version of Coldplay - Fix You. But when i play a percussive thumb slap it sounds so god**** loud. It really sounds like i'm hitting the strings as hard as i can. Like i'm recording firecrackers or something.

I have tried doing the percussive as gently as possible, because the mic is only recording the sounds i'm making, right? But that does not help. It still sounds really weird.

I have tried recording with the mic pointing towards the 12/14 fret. I have tried where it pointed towards the middle of the neck. I have tried it 20 cm from the guitar. I have even tried it 150 cm from the guitar. I have tried about 10-15 different positions. And it still sounds like i'm beating my guitarstrings with a stick.

So my question is this. Could it be a bad microphone? Or could it be the guitar? I have a Yamaha FG730S. (I'm currently looking for a new guitar)

[Doug Young]

It's probably your thumb :-) This isn't surprising, a lot of things sound different when you hear them on a recording. Percussive effects like this can be sound different than you expect. Partly it may just be that you're always doing it too loud, but there are also things that work fine when you are playing live that you have to adjust when recording. It just takes some practice and adjustment to learn how to play in a way that records well.

[KevWind]

What Doug said .... there are some fairly big differences between playing live and recording particularly with sharp transients like percussion.
It theoretically could be something with the mic, but doubtful given it is a volume level difference you are describing ..... (If it were a transient response problem with the mic it would likely be heard as distortion at the same level as the guitar, but not being louder than the guitar) . So odds are, it is more to do with your technique

What i would do to test this is first play the guitar and thumb slap like you normally do BUT not playing the song continuously . First don't do the thumb slap but get the fingerpicking level where you want it . Then simply play the guitar for a few beats stop, pause, then thumb slap........ listen to the recording see what the relative the levels are. The pause will let you proceed with a more organised systematic approach

Then start incrementally adjusting how loud you do the thumb slaps but ply the shot fingerpicked section the same each time , and see if you can systematically go from so soft that the slap is not heard, or barely heard, and just keep increasing the volume of the thumb slaps up to how you would normally do it and then listen to the recording and try to determine at what level of thumb slap does it fit with the level of guitar.

[Cocobolo Kid]

Record it as best you can first, adjusting your thumb slap volume. Then, you can fix what remains post recording using compression or an audio editor.

[Celine John]

I was hoping i could blame it on a bad mic

Well the approach makes sense. But im not quite sure what this sentence means: "listen to the recording see what the relative the levels are." Is that something i can see with my eyes or do i use a software to see those relative levels?

[Brent Hahn]

Having recorded a zillion people playing acoustic guitars... that's kinda the way it is, especially with condenser mics. People will inadvertently touch the top with the tip of their pick, or have a shirt button click on the back, and it sounds like a gun going off.

My ideal recording acoustic guitarist would be catatonic, naked, and not breathing.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Celine John

I was hoping i could blame it on a bad mic

Well the approach makes sense. But im not quite sure what this sentence means: "listen to the recording see what the relative the levels are." Is that something i can see with my eyes or do i use a software to see those relative levels?

Good question.. So that sentence is meaning simply by listening to the playback (not looking) how loud do the fingerpicking and slap sound relative to each other ' (the technical term for audio volume or loudness is level)

But since you are using the Focusrite I assume you are using a DAW software program on you computer to record into yes? So depending on which one then it may have both a mixing section that looks like virtual channel strips and faders etc. and an edit section that shows a simulated audio waveform horizontally left to right So if your system has that, then most likely you can also visually see where the loud slaps are. Because that part of the wave form will be taller vertically than the quieter fingerpicking (and that brings up something (depending on what DAW )you can do edit wise, to bring the level of the slaps down . But I have to go right now but will be happy to explain more later .

[DupleMeter]

Yup

So, what people are saying is pretty much the deal here. Recording is a different animal than playing live. Ask any studio musician & they'll tell you that half the job is just knowing how things will record when played certain ways.

Thinking about this as if I had to mix it I would probably approach it like this:

Step 1: isolate the thumb slap in my DAW by splicing/clipping (whatever your DAW calls it) just before & just after the thumb slap in the waveform/audio region (again, whatever your DAW calls it).

Step 2: I'd adjust the bite volume/region volume/bite gain so that it's gain was in line with the rest of the part. I think almost every DAW has this functionality now. Because you clipped the thumb slap to be a separate "region" you can now adjust it's volume in relation to everything else without using the channel fader or having to write in level automation.

Repeat Steps 1 & 2 for each occurrence of the thumb slap.

Then move on to EQ, compression, the rest of the mixing phase.

You've started down the long, shadowy path of recording. You'll learn a lot and probably always feel like you striving for what's right ahead of you. That's why I called it a long path. You'll also want to get as much info from those that do it (especially those that do it professionally), but you'll find there is never just 1 "right" way to do things. It's a creative process with many solutions to each problem. Each solution providing it's own benefits and deficiencies. And that's why I said it was a shadowy path.

Don't give up! We all started there. Before I started working in studios here in the NYC area I had my own 4-track in high school (yeah, it was a while ago). Cut my teeth on tape, then ADATs & DTRS decks, then Pro Tools. I always feel like I'm learning and it's really cool. In fact, after decades of mixing I'm really liking this new world of Active EQs (sometimes called Dynamic EQs). What I would have given to have had those available to me when I was mixing on tape.

And you're lucky to be starting now. It's much easier to get into recording now & in the box mixing has finally come to the a place where they are as good as (maybe better than?) mixes done on huge expensive consoles like SSLs or APIs.

[Celine John]

Thanks a lot for all your tips and insights.

Yes i am recording in a DAW. Im using audacity at the moment.

I went to guitar practice today, and i played the arrangement to my teacher. He said that im using the correct technique, and that i am not slapping too hard, so it's got to be something to do with the mic position and maybe editing as well.

I wil test it out again tommorow, and i will keep posting updates in this thread and maybe some soundbites. I hope i can get the hang of it at some point

Thanks again. You have all been very helpfull

[Doug Young]

We haven't heard you, so it's hard to know for sure, but I imagine your teacher is saying the slaps aren't too loud when he's listening to you. That's basically "live". Recording is a different thing. You may be able to improve things with mic placement, and you can also use a limiter, or manual editing of the peaks, but the key is learning how to play for a recording. As many people are saying here, it's just a different process. Even live, I suspect many people overdue the percussive stuff, but get away with it live because it seems exciting, and there's just more tolerance for things to not be "perfect" as we expect on a recording.

I interviewed Andy McKee a few years ago for Acoustic Guitar, and the big thing I was impressed with was his control over dynamics. Whether he was doing 2-handed tapping, harmonics, body percussion or hard strumming, the volume was smooth, consistent and even. I recorded him with just a zoom recorder a foot or 2 out, and the recording was perfect. I didn't have to limit, or edit peaks when he was doing percussion, or raise levels on right handed tapping, etc. I didn't have to do anything specal with mic placement, just put the mics in front of him and hit record. He just produced a "ready to release" sound right off. It was eye-opening. Just takes practice

[Celine John]

Yes, that is pretty much what he said. I mailed him one of my recordings a few days ago, and he did say it sounded like i was slapping the strings quite hard. But when he listened to me playing it live, he said, that i should probably try to work with editing and mic-placement.

But i do agree, that i have a lot of practise and testing to do, in order to make it sound decent on a recording. But how different can a thumb-slap be? I mean if you ignore mic-placement, editing and those things that comes into play on recordings, isn't a thumb-slap just a thumb-slap? It almost sounds like it's an entire different technique i have to use with my right hand, when i'm recording?

I will post soundbites tonight, when i get home from work

[Ty Ford]

Your teacher may not be a recording engineer.

I was at a party a few years ago, a young man took his turn to play a few songs. He was a little nervous. As a result, he played too loud and sang too softly. After he played and sang his pieces, I told him that we couldn't hear his vocals. He admitted to not being a loud singer. I asked him to sing and play another song, but play not as loud and to listen for balance. When he had to consciously deal with the levels of his voice and guitar, he got it. He evened out. Don't know if he was able to do that the next day or not. It might have slipped away.

BALANCE

It's particularly difficult to get the balance right when your not in your right mind; when you simply can't hear these things.

Thumb popping. If you can't learn to control it, try another guitar or thump somewhere else that's not as resonant. Learn to know what that feels like and sounds like. Problem solved.

Put one mic about nose high, about a foot back and aim it slightly down. to capture both your voice and guitar. Push the record button. Listen to the playback.

Randall Williams came over one day. While we were in my living room, he talked about shooting a video. I had been shooting video for about a year or so. I grabbed my Canon XL2, put a Countryman E6 on him and set a Schoeps CMC641 up in front of his guitar. You can see it briefly in some of the camera angles.

He did a lot of percussive work, but it never got in the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDxKzVBoZTA

Now that you know how loud you're thumping, I think you'll be fine.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Celine John

isn't a thumb-slap just a thumb-slap? It almost sounds like it's an entire different technique i have to use with my right hand, when i'm recording?

Just slap lighter. A thumb slap can be anything from an explosion to a subtle, barely heard "hint" that just mutes the string. it all depends on the musical context. If you spend time recording, you'll probably discover lots of things that seem like they work well live, but that don't translate well on a recording. In live performance, it's often about the energy, while recording often requires more restraint and precision.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If you spend time recording, you'll probably discover lots of things that seem like they work well live, but that don't translate well on a recording. In live performance, it's often about the energy, while recording often requires more restraint and precision.

In that sense, guitarists get off easy. It's way more of an adjustment for drummers.