Builders: Can you tell if a top will be mismatched right away?

[murrmac123]

I have pointed this out before, but it is at least conceivable that some customers might prefer to have a degree of assymetric *bookmatch* grain matching as a trade-off for obtaining a totally "runout free" top.

I am assuming that since this is a builder's forum I don't need to explain the concept any further.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I have pointed this out before, but it is at least conceivable that some customers might prefer to have a degree of assymetric *bookmatch* grain matching as a trade-off for obtaining a totally "runout free" top.

I am assuming that since this is a builder's forum I don't need to explain the concept any further.

You could get a little "pattern shift" with riftsawn board that are otherwise no run off... but I don't think it's that perceptible with straight grain...

[John Arnold]

I often see tops where the tree started out growing straight, and became more twisted over time.

That is the way spiral growth works. The trees don't twist from day one....it is a progressive thing.

If the tree grew with the same run out the whole time the stripes on the two halves of the top would be straight across, but in different places. In practice I'm not sure you'd see that very often.

Never, actually.

This thread finally got to the heart of the runout issue. That is when removing a bridge or fingerboard extension. Skilled repairmen always read the runout before removing a bridge, bridgeplate, fingerboard or brace to avoid problems. Bridges always lift from the back side, and if the top has runout, that will cause tearout on one side of the center joint.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by redir

Here is a pic of one of my vintage guitar. It's an S.S. Stewart from about 1925 and has some pretty pronounced runout. You can see that the left half is lighter then the right half as Charles mentioned. It tends to bother some people probably more then it should.

I'd take that home with me...

[printer2]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I have pointed this out before, but it is at least conceivable that some customers might prefer to have a degree of assymetric *bookmatch* grain matching as a trade-off for obtaining a totally "runout free" top.

I am assuming that since this is a builder's forum I don't need to explain the concept any further.

I am part way through a full size guitar that I built mainly out of one 2" x 4" x 8' stud. I laid them out and joined the pieces for the top and back filch matched, cut and spread like a deck of cards. no runout but the grain does not match up from piece to piece.

[RP]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

From a player/buyer perspective, runout in a guitar top appears as one half of the top being a different color (lighter/darker) than the other when light shines on it. (If you turn the guitar 180 degrees, the color difference reverses.) It is a function of how the surface of the wood reflects light due to the orientation of the wood's fibers. There are many, many examples of this, just look at photos of guitars where one half of the top appears lighter than the other: that is the effect of runout. If one, as a player/buyer dislikes that appearance, one can attempt to buy a guitar that does not exhibit that behaviour. It has no practical other significance to the player or buyer. End of story.

In recent years, internet discussion forums have made famous the term "runout". Most players don't know what it is or what significance it might have: they only know that other internet discussions have said it is bad.

Very, very, very few guitars are "compromised" tonally or structurally due to having a guitar top that has some runout. (Far too many braces have lots of runout, leading to split braces, but that hasn't become an internet discussion topic. One-piece necks display poor "runout" at the head, leading to many broken heads, but that hasn't caught a lot of internet discussion attention either, despite being a common practice on even the most famous brands.)

Runout is one of the criteria that should be considered in wood selection by the maker: it should be of little concern to the player or buyer. Most instruments come with warranties that ought to provide the buyer peace of mind regarding the structural integrity of the instrument one buys, and recourse should there be issues with it.

While you may be right as to the lack of structural issues, aren't you ignoring the plain simple notion that those who don't like runout on a guitar (myself included) have formed that opinion solely based on appearance. Many small builders clearly put a lot of planning and effort into the cosmetic aspects of their guitars, so it seems a bit simplistic to dismiss a concern for runout because it is less easily controlled than the design of inlay, headstocks, binding and the like....

[redir]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

I'd take that home with me...

BRW back and sides, punchy ladder braced top. Great blues guitar.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by RP

...aren't you ignoring the plain simple notion that those who don't like runout on a guitar (myself included) have formed that opinion solely based on appearance.

You have stated your aesthetic preference that you don't like two-tone tops, a function of runout. It is similar to saying, "I don't like guitars that are the color blue." Both are an expression of a personal preference based upon aesthetics. There isn't much to say about that: there is no "right" or "wrong", it is a personal preference. The only comment one can really make is, "Don't buy a blue guitar, then, or one with a two-tone top".

However, when people across various discussion forums want to know what a blue guitar looks like because they've heard that blue is "bad" and indicates inferiority of workmanship and/or material selection, there is something that can be said about that, and that is what I attempted to address. Ditto for "runout".

I'm not ignoring your preference, there just isn't much to say about it, and no reason for anyone to try to change your preference. The point of my previous post was to point out that it is, mostly, a personal preference that has little or no bearing on the quality of the instrument.

[RP]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

You have stated your aesthetic preference that you don't like two-tone tops, a function of runout. It is similar to saying, "I don't like guitars that are the color blue." Both are an expression of a personal preference based upon aesthetics. There isn't much to say about that: there is no "right" or "wrong", it is a personal preference. The only comment one can really make is, "Don't buy a blue guitar, then, or one with a two-tone top".

However, when people across various discussion forums want to know what a blue guitar looks like because they've heard that blue is "bad" and indicates inferiority of workmanship and/or material selection, there is something that can be said about that, and that is what I attempted to address. Ditto for "runout".

I'm not ignoring your preference, there just isn't much to say about it, and no reason for anyone to try to change your preference. The point of my previous post was to point out that it is, mostly, a personal preference that has little or no bearing on the quality of the instrument.

I interpreted from your prior comment that you felt that since runout was not a structural issue for a guitar, then it should be unimportant to a buyer. Mea culpa if I misinterpreted your meaning. For the record, I don't like blue guitars either....

[tadol]

I think you have it right - if a guitar is blue, or sunburst, or inlaid, it should only carry the significance an arbitrary aesthetic choice should carry. If a player is looking for a great guitar, they’d be better served not choosing by color -

[JDatlen]

Originally Posted by printer2

I am part way through a full size guitar that I built mainly out of one 2" x 4" x 8' stud. I laid them out and joined the pieces for the top and back filch matched, cut and spread like a deck of cards. no runout but the grain does not match up from piece to piece.

I think technically, you may still have runout. It’s just not visible because all your boards are running the same way. Cool project though. I’ve found some great wood in construction lumber!

[printer2]

Originally Posted by JDatlen

I think technically, you may still have runout. It’s just not visible because all your boards are running the same way. Cool project though. I’ve found some great wood in construction lumber!

Yes I assumed there is, that is why I kept the boards the same direction. This poor guitar always has its completion date bumped back, because other instruments shove their way to the front.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by JDatlen

I think technically, you may still have runout. It’s just not visible because all your boards are running the same way. Cool project though. I’ve found some great wood in construction lumber!

I had one nice 2 x 12 x 10' clear Western red cedar, completely quartered, that came in an order I was going to use for the outer rim joist on a deck. Needless to say, that board went aside, and I used all the flatsawn stuff. Unfortunately my yield wasn't the greatest because of my method (10" table saw modified for 12" blade, high fence, cleaned on planer with special platen) but I still have a few sets left..

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by RP

I interpreted from your prior comment that you felt that since runout was not a structural issue for a guitar, then it should be unimportant to a buyer. Mea culpa if I misinterpreted your meaning. For the record, I don't like blue guitars either....

Scott Chinery would have been taken aback by your dislike of blue guitars! I remember when they were displayed (along with his other guitars) at the old Long Island guitar show. Probably one of the most amazing collection of guitars ever.

[JDatlen]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

I had one nice 2 x 12 x 10' clear Western red cedar, completely quartered, that came in an order I was going to use for the outer rim joist on a deck. Needless to say, that board went aside, and I used all the flatsawn stuff. Unfortunately my yield wasn't the greatest because of my method (10" table saw modified for 12" blade, high fence, cleaned on planer with special platen) but I still have a few sets left..

Hi Louie,
I occasionally build gates and arbors for high end homes in the Sf Bay Area. We always use clear dry western red cedar timbers. One job I ended up with about 30 tops out of a 4x10. Perfectly quartered, little to no run out, stiff in both directions, tight grain and even color. Definitely 3AAA quality! What a find! Keep your eyes peeled, you never know what is going to turn up!!
John