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  #16  
Old 03-31-2013, 11:20 PM
donh donh is offline
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Karl,

I could easily be incorrect here, but it looks to me as though you are carrying wayyy to much tension in your left arm as you address the neck. That elbow looks welded to the body and the wrist looks like it's trying to shake itself loose.

I find as I age that I need more motion in the upper arm and shoulder to keep myself from stiffening up as I play. If I stick in one position too long my hand and wrist seizes up and my fingers go all rubbery. Then I better hope I'm playing in an open tuning so I can fake it a bit and shake the hand/wrist out and finish the tune.

Looks to me like you could perhaps loosen up in the palm and upper arm and walk away from that pain.
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  #17  
Old 04-01-2013, 09:18 AM
Celeste Celeste is offline
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Karl,

From your video, your fingers are doing the right stuff, but your thumb isn't. You get all the power on your fingers by the opposition of your thumb. Your thumb should be in alignment with your second finger (which it is pretty much), but your thumb is sticking up off the neck of the guitar.

Practice using the end of your thumb on the neck, across from your second finger and realize that the power and pressure come from this opposition. The end of the thumb needs to be engaged on the opposite side of the neck from your fingers to give you this power and pressure. This will give your fingers a break not to mention your forearm.

good luck
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  #18  
Old 04-01-2013, 12:21 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlK View Post
Here's a youtube of me playing my Gibson J45 -- you can see my left hand position as I play G/C, Cadd9, C, Amin, and D chords. At 0:58 you can see the full C chord that I describe in my opening post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF5dsORXQa8
I'd say your position looks generally good, but the way your left wrist is waggling up and down is a bad sign, suggesting you are exerting too much pressure, and/or exerting it very inefficiently.
Mostly your wrist is at a good angle, not over-extended or twisted, but it should be relaxed, and should not move up and down constantly the way yours is.
Having your thumb over the top is not necessarily a bad thing (you're not playing classical style!), but it may mean that the finger pressure is being opposed by squeezing with the palm, or - if your palm is not squeezing the neck - that the thumb angle means fingertip pressure is being applied inefficiently.

IOW, classical thumb-behind is recommended as being the most efficient use of force: as Celeste says, the thumb pad sits on the back of the neck roughly opposite where middle finger is fretting, so you effectively pinch the neck between thumb and fingertips.
As I say, non-classical position (and the typical steel-string neck) means that position is not essential, but it may be worth trying to see if it helps.
It might also help to raise the neck a little higher.
I don't agree with donh that your elbow looks "welded to your body" (my upper arm angle is much the same and feels quite relaxed), but there's clearly too much tension somewhere, and he's quite right that loosening up generally ought to help.

If you feel it's an effort generally to fret strings, fitting lighter strings and having the nut checked might also be a good idea. Even on Gibsons, nuts are occasionally set too high...
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  #19  
Old 04-01-2013, 12:43 PM
slide496 slide496 is offline
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Sounds like a form of trigger finger,coupled with forearm and wrist tendonitis or worse. Best to get it looked at. Good luck.
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  #20  
Old 04-01-2013, 04:29 PM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
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You say the pain is in the forearm as well. To me that it is suggestive of tendinitis. All around, I think you can play and I beat a similar problem last year. I treated it as you do, as an RSI. I began icing the arm and hand immediately, just while watching TV, had the ice pack on. Started Ibruprofen (advil) in 3 X 400 mg a day. Bought a forearm splint at the drug store and started wearing it. That relieved pressure for sleep and stabilized things.

Immediately switched to ultra light gauge strings. You can also just drop the tuning down a full step without a gauge swap.

Your wrist position is good. The thumb is where many players put it, but I would try a bit of the classical thumb position to see how it goes.

From where I sit, you need to get some ultra light strings or drop the tuning a full step ASAP. If it persists then we are all off base. But it sounds a lot like RSI. What is good for others is not necessarily good for you.

I work in the health care sector and the input I provide is a considered professional opinion.

For referral, locate a physiatrist (MD with 4 years of additional post grad in physical medicine). We have a clinic here that assesses and treats musicians only. Get an evaluation, they will want radiographs, blood uric acid, and maybe a rheumatologic evaluation. They need to rule out things like gout and arthritis as well. The finger slipping out of joint suggests laxity of the ligaments or something a bit more than a simple RSI, best to get it looked at.

For now, test out what I have suggested. Be sure to take Advil with meals. This assumes you have taken Advil before and have no bad reactions. Advil should not be taken for more than a few days.
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  #21  
Old 04-01-2013, 04:39 PM
donh donh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
I'd say your position looks generally good, but the way your left wrist is waggling up and down is a bad sign, suggesting you are exerting too much pressure, and/or exerting it very inefficiently.
Mostly your wrist is at a good angle, not over-extended or twisted, but it should be relaxed, and should not move up and down constantly the way yours is.
Having your thumb over the top is not necessarily a bad thing (you're not playing classical style!), but it may mean that the finger pressure is being opposed by squeezing with the palm, or - if your palm is not squeezing the neck - that the thumb angle means fingertip pressure is being applied inefficiently.

IOW, classical thumb-behind is recommended as being the most efficient use of force: as Celeste says, the thumb pad sits on the back of the neck roughly opposite where middle finger is fretting, so you effectively pinch the neck between thumb and fingertips.
As I say, non-classical position (and the typical steel-string neck) means that position is not essential, but it may be worth trying to see if it helps.
It might also help to raise the neck a little higher.
I don't agree with donh that your elbow looks "welded to your body" (my upper arm angle is much the same and feels quite relaxed), but there's clearly too much tension somewhere, and he's quite right that loosening up generally ought to help.

If you feel it's an effort generally to fret strings, fitting lighter strings and having the nut checked might also be a good idea. Even on Gibsons, nuts are occasionally set too high...
JonPR: yes! and Thank You :-) We essentially agree.

I think the minor details are immaterial and the fact is that there is too much tension somewhere. The waving wrist is a huge flag.

Karl: You are a Player. You have a good sense of what to do, your chord changes are crisp and solid. I think you have enough information above to make the changes necessary for continued function w/o pain. Go for it!
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2013, 03:24 PM
KarlK KarlK is offline
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Thanks everyone for the great advice -- and compliments on my playing. I was really enjoying playing, and I know I can get pretty good at it. I know I have a modicum of talent. Getting the pain and trigger finger injury has been a true bummer.

I never noticed my wrise bobbing up and down, until you guys mentioned it.

The action on the Gibson is low, and I am using light gauge strings.

Meanwhile, I have shut down my playing, and have put a homemade splint on my left hand ring finger, on the bottom side, for the last couple of days to keep the finger from bending down. Last night, I took it off for a couple of hours, and the finger popped out just once, and ever so slightly. I have since put the splinter back on.

I have wrapping my wrist and forearm in cold compresses twice a day. It seems to have helped. I haven't taken Advil, but will start tonight.

Davis, if you have a recommendation for a physiatrist in the Chicago area, PM me.
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  #23  
Old 04-18-2013, 03:31 PM
KarlK KarlK is offline
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Well, I have started back playing again -- just doing open chords no bars.

My wrist and forearm seem to be much better but the ring finger on my left hand remains week. It pops out from time to time, but not at painfully or at such a huge angle.

I was hoping that keeping the ring finger splintered would help the triggering, but it appears that I still have the problem, albeit at a much less intense level. It feel good to push the finger back but if try to make a fist, the ring finger feels painful and will pop out from time to time.

I guess it's doctor time.
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  #24  
Old 06-12-2013, 02:29 PM
KarlK KarlK is offline
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Well, this week I went to a hand surgeon to take care of my trigger finger on the ring finger on my left hand. While the finger has improved since I last mentioned the problem a few months ago, it continues to pop out, and at times the pain is quite startling when it does pop.

The doc gave me a cortisone shot at the site of inflammation, and told me that it may take two months for healing to occur. If I still have the issue two months from now, we will move to plan B which is surgery.

I am still playing, but open chords only, and keep away from barre chords, especially the barre A shape, which puts pressure on the left hand ring finger. The doc said I could continue to play.

So, stay tuned. Hope the shot works.
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  #25  
Old 06-12-2013, 05:19 PM
email4eric email4eric is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlK View Post
Well, I totally shut down for the last few days, iced up my hands and wrist...and then, two nights ago, I woke up in the middle of the night, and the bottom knuckle on my left ring finger was bent all way down -- it had popped out dislocated. It had become dislocated as I was sleeping!! And woke me up.

So for last couple of days I have been wearing a homemade splint made from a popsicle stick covering the bottom just my ring finger, with the stick up to the first knuckle, to keep the finger from bending out of joint.

Wild, eh?
Arthritis (osteo, that is) would present with pain and stiffness primarily in the morning and would diminish with activity. In other words, once you start moving about, it would improve.

What you're describing above sounds like trigger finger. Regardless, you've got some tendon issues going on.
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