mandolin won't stay in tune

[Charmed Life Picks]

Hi, I have a new Epiphone mandolin a few years old. I believe it is discontinued, but it is a pretty good Chinese knock-off of the Gibson F-5 style.

I've long heard that most mandolins have trouble staying in tune because of the small lower bridge. Mine does as well. My first mandy teacher told me the line (usually attributed to Jethro Burns), "Mandolin players spend 97% of their time tuning, and the other 3% playing out of tune."

Question: Is there any way to solve this problem? Would it help to change either the bridge or the tuning gears or both?

Thanks for your input.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Replacing the tuners will make a huge difference. I've had these Grover F-style tuning machines on a mandolin and they worked great, with the mandolin rarely going out of tune.

The bridge has little effect on the mandolin's ability to stay in tune, though its positioning (since it 'floats' on the top) is crucial to intonation.

A less drastic and expensive thing you can try is to change strings. I'd recommend trying a set of GHS Bobby Osborne Phosphor Bronze Mandolin Strings 11-38. The gauges of this set (11-16-24W-38W) allow for very even string tension across all the strings. This helps with tuning stability (and it's also very good on the mandolin's neck too).

[K-vegas]

I'm not expert but going from 'in tune' to 'out of tune' seems to require that the tension of the string change.

Neck bowing? - all strings would go flat/sharp together - not likely imo
New strings streching? - one or more string going flat - goes away eventually
String binding in the nut? - string tends to go sharp after playing and the bind is released - does not go away - gets worse the more you tune
Loops in mando strings elongating? - string goes flat but after a while this stops
Tuners slipping - I've had some cheap tuners and this never was a problem

I'm having trouble seeing how the bridge causes the string tension to change since it only supports the string

For me nut binding has been the leading cause of tuning issues. If the offending string goes sharp it is probably binding - depends if you tune up or down. When its bad you almost can't play the instrument. Its pretty easy to fix tho

[urlkonig]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

The bridge has little effect on the mandolin's ability to stay in tune, though its positioning (since it 'floats' on the top) is crucial to intonation.

I'll second what Ed-in-Ohio said about the bridge -- the first thing to do is to correctly position the bridge so that the intonation at the 12th fret is correct.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Thanks, everyone. This is all good info. Since I plan on keeping the instrument (I don't tend to sell or trade my instruments), I think I'll start with the tuning gears.

What brand does Gibson use on their mandys? CouLd somebody perhaps send me a link to a good set of gears or a good website? Maybe EBAY?

Thanks Again!

[urlkonig]

In the "affordable" and good category, StewMac has some Grovers for F-style headstocks. There are many options listed on eBay of course, Pings and Gotohs should be pretty decent quality.

[Charmed Life Picks]

URL:

I just looked on the Gibson website, and they pretty much use Grovers across the board. I don't mind paying a little extra to resolve this problem.

Sounds like a lot of good choices. Any particular brand that is considered the best in regards to intonation? The Grover replacements look to be about $60 for a set, certainly very affordable.

Thanks, URL.

[GerryinAZ]

I have to chime in that I agree with something K-Vegas said above; Nut binding. Try penciling in a little graphite (#2 pencil works great) in the nut slots and see if that helps. The graphite will help the strings slide easier in the nut slots. Even if it helps just a little bit, but doesn't completely clear up the issue, I would have the nut slots cut (filed) a bit more to suit the string dimension.

Tuner upgrades are nice, but they aren't the be-all, end-all solution to mandolin tuning issues. They are definitely one of the more expensive options.

The old adage you gave above about tuning/playing out of tune is funny, but also carries some truth. If you want to stick with the mandolin you have to somewhat resign yourself to having to check your tuning on a fairly regular basis.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Gerry, thanks. The graphite idea sounds like a cheap and easy suggestion. I'll also buy the strings recommended earlier in this thread. If it persists, I live near McCabe's here in Santa Monica and can have them take a look at it.

For the price, this is a nice mandy. It has that lovely F-hole "bark". Not sure why they discontinued it, but I plan on keeping it. But it's wearing out the battery on my Snark!

Thanks!

[Teleman52]

Originally Posted by charmedlife417

Gerry, thanks. The graphite idea sounds like a cheap and easy suggestion. I'll also buy the strings recommended earlier in this thread. If it persists, I live near McCabe's here in Santa Monica and can have them take a look at it.

For the price, this is a nice mandy. It has that lovely F-hole "bark". Not sure why they discontinued it, but I plan on keeping it. But it's wearing out the battery on my Snark!

Thanks!

This what you should do indeed. Tuners could possibly be the source of your problem, but it's much much more likely something to do with the setup especially the nut

[Charmed Life Picks]

TeleMan, thanks, I bought a tube of graphite and will try it out at my next jam and report back.

[GerryinAZ]

Originally Posted by charmedlife417

TeleMan, thanks, I bought a tube of graphite and will try it out at my next jam and report back.

A "Tube of Graphite"? As in lubricant grease/anti-seize? If so, I wouldn't get that stuff anywhere near your instrument.

Just grab a pencil you have laying around, loosen the strings so you can get them out of the slots and color in the nuts slots with as much as you can get in there. It won't be very much.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Gerry, No, I haven't opened it yet, but a "tube" of graphite is merely graphite dust or powder; there's nothing liquid or greasy about it. It works great in powder form for locksmiths (or homeowners) to "squirt" the powder into a tight dead bolt or lock.

Appreciate your concern, but I've used it before and it sounds perfect for this application.

Thanks

[815C]

I bought a used Breedlove mando a few years ago and the A strings wouldn't stay in tune for a complete song. I took it back to the store and their tech worked on it, but no real improvement. I took it to Greg at The Classic Ax in Nashville and he set it up and it stayed in tune great after that. I asked him what he did that made the difference and he said he worked on the bridge - not sure what he did exactly.

[Charmed Life Picks]

815C: Thanks. While we're on the topic: Does anyone know a really good mandolin tech in Los Angeles? I've always gone to McCabe's but don't know the folks down there anymore. Anyone good out in the Valley?

I'm looking for someone who specializes in mandolins, not just a guitar luthier.

Thanks!