Song writers: When is your song done? Is it ever?

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by strangebloom

My songs are done when I like them. Usually at that point, I'm ready to move on to my next song. Rarely, I may change my mind about something... but most of the time, I'd really rather be done and write new songs.

Yup. I say ready rather than done, because I'm never done messing with them. By ready, I mean ready to perform, with feeling. I've done the sanding, varnishing, embellishing, retrofitting, and Sanforizing, memorizing, and practicing. It's ready for public consumption.

But I completely agree with you. When I finally like a song, I call it good. I got the word listening to Terry Gross interview Salman Rushdie on Fresh Air. Salman said he was working on a new novel, and Terry asked him if it was good.

He said, "No! If it were good, it would be done."

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by ghostnote

Being a pen/paper/writer guy and a write-as-you-record guy don’t have to be two different things, because I’m always doing both of those things. Pretty much all of my songs are constructed using a combo of both methods. And no, even if one of them is considered complete, it’s never done. I’m always willing to add - or delete - something that’ll make it better. I have many songs that only have four or five tracks recorded. That’s enough to give me a solid framework to add to when I go back to them later.

My ambition is to get good at single-track recording. Harder than it sounds!

[ghostnote]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

My ambition is to get good at single-track recording. Harder than it sounds!

You’re right. I always recorded our band’s rehearsals using a Zoom H4N, which has a pair of stereo mics, and I’d put two LD condenser mics into the extra channels. (the band was 2 electric guitars, bass, drums in a small room) Once I found the proper levels and mic placement, there was never any tweaking or overdubs on anything and the mics stayed in the exact same spot for literally years - it was simply push record and play the song. The results were put directly into my PC as a stereo track, no mixing of any kind. We wanted to know what we sounded like live in the room - we had a seating area for guests across the room and we wanted to hear what they were hearing. It’s amazing how good some of those simple recordings actually were. (of course, 75% were total crap - these were rehearsals after all) We learned to play to the room, with all its quirks, and it really taught us a lot about listening to each other.

[zuzu]

Mine are done when they are "close enough for now"...so I guess they are done if I don't come back to them, and not done if I do.

Once they are tossed up for public consumption, with a band, streaming, etc., they are pretty much done.

This speaks of the bones of the song, not the arrangement. I have one song that folks enjoy that is a boogie woogie rocker, a bluegrass song, or a rockabilly number, depending upon who I am playing it with at the moment. None of them is my doing, I wrote it as a straight ahead country song, but I like them all.

[Mr. Jelly]

Every form of writing benefits from being rewritten. That includes songs. Embrace it.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

My songs are mostly "done" very soon. I typically put out a "first work tape" on SoundCloud, then listen to it for a few days. After that, I may make a few changes based on what I'm hearing (or what some friends of mine hear).

The main changes are slight wording changes or melody changes that make the songs "sing better" for me.

I tend to edit my songs as I'm writing them (I've been told this isn't necessarily a good thing, as it limits creativity?) and I tend to "finish" my songs too early. At least based on what some pro songwriting friends of mine have said to me.

But who's to say who's right or wrong? I had a great songwriter (has 16 #1 hits to his name) critique some of my songs. The opening line is:

Grew up listenin' to Johnny Cash and George Jones
The music seared my heart, sent chills into my soul

I was told that I'd missed a great opportunity for a hard rhyme because I could've said "sent chills into my bones".

I thought about it . . and though I was embarrassed that I hadn't thought of that word, I stuck by my original wording. Why? First, I think a chill to the SOUL goes deeper than a chill to the BONE. Also, I much prefer soft rhymes . . as long as they are the right words. I'll "accept" a hard rhyme if it's the right word. The total opposite of most songwriters, I'd say . . . they'd rather get that hard rhyme if they can.

I like your logic and reasoning. Part of what I consider to be the fun part of songwriting is the playful use of language, no different than what we hear in real life.

One of the lines in "Bernie Made Off With The Money" reads:
"The only thing that would make me feel better is to see him swinging from the edge of a rope".

After posting the song on a forum I received a long and verbose communication from someone who listened with several points of "grammatical correction" for my lyrics. He couldn't get past the "edge of a rope" line as well as several more. He even told me I'd incorrectly spelled Madoff's name!

He just didn't get it, but there are many who can't look beyond what's written so they can understand the feel or even roll with creative use of language. I'm sure he fully embraced "paint by number" artwork.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by ghostnote

You’re right. I always recorded our band’s rehearsals using a Zoom H4N, which has a pair of stereo mics, and I’d put two LD condenser mics into the extra channels. (the band was 2 electric guitars, bass, drums in a small room) Once I found the proper levels and mic placement, there was never any tweaking or overdubs on anything and the mics stayed in the exact same spot for literally years - it was simply push record and play the song. The results were put directly into my PC as a stereo track, no mixing of any kind. We wanted to know what we sounded like live in the room - we had a seating area for guests across the room and we wanted to hear what they were hearing. It’s amazing how good some of those simple recordings actually were. (of course, 75% were total crap - these were rehearsals after all) We learned to play to the room, with all its quirks, and it really taught us a lot about listening to each other.

Good lesson!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by zuzu

Mine are done when they are "close enough for now"...so I guess they are done if I don't come back to them, and not done if I do.

Once they are tossed up for public consumption, with a band, streaming, etc., they are pretty much done.

This speaks of the bones of the song, not the arrangement. I have one song that folks enjoy that is a boogie woogie rocker, a bluegrass song, or a rockabilly number, depending upon who I am playing it with at the moment. None of them is my doing, I wrote it as a straight ahead country song, but I like them all.

Cool. Kind of like "Honky Tonk Woman" versus "Country Honk."

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I like your logic and reasoning. Part of what I consider to be the fun part of songwriting is the playful use of language, no different than what we hear in real life.

One of the lines in "Bernie Made Off With The Money" reads:
"The only thing that would make me feel better is to see him swinging from the edge of a rope".

After posting the song on a forum I received a long and verbose communication from someone who listened with several points of "grammatical correction" for my lyrics. He couldn't get past the "edge of a rope" line as well as several more. He even told me I'd incorrectly spelled Madoff's name!

He just didn't get it, but there are many who can't look beyond what's written so they can understand the feel or even roll with creative use of language. I'm sure he fully embraced "paint by number" artwork.

I used to tutor English grammar, writing, and usage, and I promis you, there's wrong with the grammar. Your "edge of the rope" is a question of word choice, not grammar (as you well know), and since you're the writer, that means it's your choice. And an entertaining one, at that.

And for what it's worth, I doubt anyone else thought you spelled made off wrong.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I received a long and verbose communication from someone who listened with several points of "grammatical correction" for my lyrics.

I write "country" music, and proper grammar often doesn't work (just don't sound right . . . see, I just did it!).

My favorite example is a line of mine that contains a TRIPLE negative in it:

"Ain't never done no dope".

Gary Burr (who has 16 #1 songs to his name) has a website where he teaches songwriting called WriteSongsGood.com

I emailed his wife (Georgia Middleman) and said she should tell Gary that this was grammatically wrong . . . and that the website should be WriteSongsGoodly.com She said he laughed!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I write "country" music, and proper grammar often doesn't work (just don't sound right . . . see, I just did it!).

Absolutely! In fact, I've tutored a lot of ESL students. They listen to a lot of songs sung in English and have all kinds of questions about lyric grammar,. We have to hammer into them that in lyrics, grammar goes right out the window. What matters, as you say, is how it sounds. Drives 'em crazy.

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

My favorite example is a line of mine that contains a TRIPLE negative in it:

"Ain't never done no dope".

A real stickler would point out that a triple negative equals a positive.

But I won't.

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Gary Burr (who has 16 #1 songs to his name) has a website where he teaches songwriting called WriteSongsGood.com

I like the way he thinks!

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I emailed his wife (Georgia Middleman) and said she should tell Gary that this was grammatically wrong . . . and that the website should be WriteSongsGoodly.com She said he laughed!

Goodly enough!

[firenza]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I tend to edit my songs as I'm writing them (I've been told this isn't necessarily a good thing, as it limits creativity?)

I've heard many people say this. I think the reason is that when you're writing spontaneously, you're making all sorts of 'unconscious' connections between words and ideas. If you rule these out too quickly (ie if you edit while doing the initial drafts) you lose what might be the most interesting ideas to develop.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by firenza

I've heard many people say this. I think the reason is that when you're writing spontaneously, you're making all sorts of 'unconscious' connections between words and ideas. If you rule these out too quickly (ie if you edit while doing the initial drafts) you lose what might be the most interesting ideas to develop.

Yup! In his book on writing, Stephen King says sort of the same thing: Don't make corrections or look up spellings until you're done writing.

Makes sense, but then he gives a sample of his own corrections, and it turns out there aren't many. His final drafts are pretty much the same as the first.

I can't work that way. It's true that I don't make many corrections while working on that first fast draft. They're such scribbles that edits the first time through wouldn't make sense. A lot of times, I can't even read my own writing. Plus there are usually dashes just showing where words need to go in.

Then I start fixing. By the time I'm done fixing up that first draft, the page is almost illegible — cross-outs, words in margins, arrows, lines between the lines. That's when I type it out and start editing by keyboard. When I have a double-space draft I like, I print it and take it to my guitar to play, pen at the ready.

When that page is too marked up to follow, I go back to the computer to make corrections and print that. I usually end up printing it two or three times to come up with a cleaner draft.

At some point, the corrections become fewer and fewer. So I have a notebook full of songs with one or two corrections written in. (They look a lot like Stephen King's corrections.) Those drafts are still readable, so I don't need to print a clean one (yet).

As you can imagine, I can easily go through well over a dozen drafts. The only final drafts will be what's in the notebook when I'm dead.

[Headless Folkie]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I write "country" music, and proper grammar often doesn't work (just don't sound right . . . see, I just did it!).

My favorite example is a line of mine that contains a TRIPLE negative in it:

"Ain't never done no dope".

I see your triple negative and raise. In a parody Blues song I wrote about someone whose life is so good, he's got nothing to complain about - The I Can't Sing The Blues," I have the line...

"No woman ever done left me, ain't never not had no place to stay."

I had to 'do the math' a few times to be sure I had it right (ie., "ain't never" = always / "not had no place" = had a place), so I was pleased when it added up correctly for the tragically fortunate blues singer.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Headless Folkie

I see your triple negative and raise. In a parody Blues song I wrote about someone whose life is so good, he's got nothing to complain about - The I Can't Sing The Blues," I have the line...

"No woman ever done left me, ain't never not had no place to stay."

I had to 'do the math' a few times to be sure I had it right (ie., "ain't never" = always / "not had no place" = had a place), so I was pleased when it added up correctly for the tragically fortunate blues singer.

Works for me and doesn't take coffee breaks.